Interesting Choora, ivory question

Helleri · 2nd April 2016, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I've noticed one or two knives of this type lately, called a choora, but to me they look for all the world like a pesh kabz. Can someone please tell me the difference?
I always thought the choora the long Afghan knife or 'Khyber' knife....

All the best,
Richard.

I thought those were two words for the same thing. Or that one was somehow a more specific localization of the other?

David · 2nd April 2016, 04:12 PM

Harry, before you start burning holes in your bone (which is the most probable material here) or, heaven forbid, catching fire to or exploding some possible bakelite replacement

, try making some better photos for us to examine.
It is one thing to have to restore nice antique pieces that have been damaged over time by abuse and the environment. It's another to have to repair your own damage. I think many of us have been aware of this hot pin method for many years, but it is not something i would personally pursue on a piece i cared about and there are ways to determine ivory from bone without having to damage you collections .

harrywagner · 2nd April 2016, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Harry, before you start burning holes in your bone (which is the most probable material here) or, heaven forbid, catching fire to or exploding some possible bakelite replacement

, try making some better photos for us to examine.
It is one thing to have to restore nice antique pieces that have been damaged over time by abuse and the environment. It's another to have to repair your own damage. I think many of us have been aware of this hot pin method for many years, but it is not something i would personally pursue on a piece i cared about and there are ways to determine ivory from bone without having to damage you collections .

Thanks David, and others. I did OK on the first of the tests that Helleri recommended, but the second test is a real killer.

I hope these are better photos. I have included some closeups of the grips also. I am confident they are bone and they may provide a good comparison. With the small hand-held microscope I have the inserts do not appear to be the same material as the grips. I had not considered that they might be enamel, only because I don't recall ever seeing enamel on a Choora before. Is that a common material used for edged weapons in this part of the world?

With regards to the name I can only say that I think it would be correct to call all Choora Pesh Kabz, but not all Pesh Kabz should be called Choora. I think that name is limited to Afghanistan only, and only to this specific blade style. That is my understanding anyway.

Thanks again everyone!

mariusgmioc · 2nd April 2016, 07:20 PM

Hello Harry,

Unfortunately, I am afraid the new photos don't help too much.

Generally ivory, nicely polished horn, bone and not to mention synthetic resin are very difficult to distinguish from photos.

Ivory has a specific structure and can display concentric circles (similar to the ones in the section of a tree). But the scales are rather small and you might have absolutely no structure at all.

I agree with David regarding the tests proposed. First test mentioned above does not work and the second one might be damaging EVEN FOR GENUINE IVORY!

For your very nice Choora, my best guess is ivory or bone (but more likely bone). I do not believe the two round inclusions to be enamel, but most likely the same material like the scales. Both bone and ivory can be easily polished to be perfectly flush with the pommel.

However, in my opinion it doesn't matter too much whether is ivory or bone. It's a nice knife anyhow!

David · 2nd April 2016, 07:51 PM

I agree with Marius that the new photos aren't much better. They are closer, but they are over-exposed and i cannot really see much detail in the material. But if push came to shove i would guess they are bone. I cannot see any patterned structure in the pieces that would lead me to believe it is ivory.

Helleri · 2nd April 2016, 08:34 PM

Rub and sniff testing can tell you a lot about vintage and antique material (if done correctly it absolutely does work). But I should carify and give some additional information about it. Bakelite has a sweet smell (this can give you forewarning). Casein can smell like wet dog. Bone ivory, horn and hoof will usually smell like burnt hair. Some resins and enamels may have their own odor (ranging from a white glue to milk like smell). Celluloid can smell sappy. It is important to have clean surface. Oils or chemicals from handling or treatment respectively can effect rub and sniff testing. So it's a good idea to make sure the surface is clean.

This should give you a pretty good idea of:

1) Whether or not all of the material is in fact the same material.

2) Whether the material is organic or synthetic

3) What material is comprised of.

4) Which if any pieces are repair/replacement pieces.

Now as for the hot needle test. It is not as destructive or as extreme as it sounds. The mark left if bone or a synthetic material will be so tiny that no one is going to notice it if they are not looking for it likely. You're not looking to press the needle with any amount of force, just touch it with the very tip. sometimes you can even just hover it very closely to see an effect. And if a material is ivory or ceramic it absolutely will leave no mark. If you do get a small undesirable mark it is very easy to repair with a little super glue and same colored dust from a very light, non-invasive filing with something like an emery nail file.

In general while a visual inspection can tell you a good deal. It's no way to go making a positive ID. Visual inspection is just one part of it. All of your senses and testing made to take advantage of those sense are important to make a positive ID on a material most of the time.

Where it regards an enamel fill it does fit the region. Enamel inlay has been used for centuries globally. The exact ingredients very a lot from region to region and even person to person. But the basic technique is to impregnate some sort of resin or adhesive with a either a pigment or insoluble material in dust form (for instance if you were to repair a small pin hole mark left by needle testing. The method prescribed is technically an enamel fill).

Usually the dust used (if dust and not a pigment) is made of the same material that accompanying scaling, plating, pining, or shodding is. So if that is an enamel fill then the secondary ingredient is likely made of dust from the same material as the scales (so it could be an ivory or bone enamel fill). This is usually done so that the effect of aging is as close to consistent as possible.

mariusgmioc · 2nd April 2016, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helleri

In general while a visual inspection can tell you a good deal. It's no way to go making a positive ID.

Hello, Helleri,

I believe elephant ivory can be quite easily and safely identified through visual inspection as it has a specific structure that is quite characteristic and cannot be imitated by artificial resin (which is closest to genuine ivory through visual inspection).

I am attaching a few examples of ivory objects that all display the structure I am talking about.

Regards,

Marius

David · 2nd April 2016, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helleri

Now as for the hot needle test. It is not as destructive or as extreme as it sounds. The mark left if bone or a synthetic material will be so tiny that no one is going to notice it if they are not looking for it likely. You're not looking to press the needle with any amount of force, just touch it with the very tip. sometimes you can even just hover it very closely to see an effect. And if a material is ivory or ceramic it absolutely will leave no mark. If you do get a small undesirable mark it is very easy to repair with a little super glue and same colored dust from a very light, non-invasive filing with something like an emery nail file.

In general while a visual inspection can tell you a good deal. It's no way to go making a positive ID. Visual inspection is just one part of it. All of your senses and testing made to take advantage of those sense are important to make a positive ID on a material most of the time.

We will simply have to agree to disagree on his matter Helleri. There is no way in hell i am going to make any damage to one of my pieces, no matter how minor it might be.
As for visual inspection for ivory identification i would say that for the vast majority of ivory you can indeed make a very good positive ID that way...with the piece in hand. You simply need to know what you are looking for. I would never suggest it can be easily to discerned from photographs though. However, if Harry's choora were in my hands right now i would feel very confident telling him if it were ivory or not.

2nd April 2016, 04:12 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Harry, before you start burning holes in your bone (which is the most probable material here) or, heaven forbid, catching fire to or exploding some possible bakelite replacement , try making some better photos for us to examine. It is one thing to have to restore nice antique pieces that have been damaged over time by abuse and the environment. It's another to have to repair your own damage. I think many of us have been aware of this hot pin method for many years, but it is not something i would personally pursue on a piece i cared about and there are ways to determine ivory from bone without having to damage you collections .

2nd April 2016, 07:20 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	Hello Harry, Unfortunately, I am afraid the new photos don't help too much. Generally ivory, nicely polished horn, bone and not to mention synthetic resin are very difficult to distinguish from photos. Ivory has a specific structure and can display concentric circles (similar to the ones in the section of a tree). But the scales are rather small and you might have absolutely no structure at all. I agree with David regarding the tests proposed. First test mentioned above does not work and the second one might be damaging EVEN FOR GENUINE IVORY! For your very nice Choora, my best guess is ivory or bone (but more likely bone). I do not believe the two round inclusions to be enamel, but most likely the same material like the scales. Both bone and ivory can be easily polished to be perfectly flush with the pommel. However, in my opinion it doesn't matter too much whether is ivory or bone. It's a nice knife anyhow!

2nd April 2016, 07:51 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I agree with Marius that the new photos aren't much better. They are closer, but they are over-exposed and i cannot really see much detail in the material. But if push came to shove i would guess they are bone. I cannot see any patterned structure in the pieces that would lead me to believe it is ivory.

2nd April 2016, 08:34 PM	#6
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Rub and sniff testing can tell you a lot about vintage and antique material (if done correctly it absolutely does work). But I should carify and give some additional information about it. Bakelite has a sweet smell (this can give you forewarning). Casein can smell like wet dog. Bone ivory, horn and hoof will usually smell like burnt hair. Some resins and enamels may have their own odor (ranging from a white glue to milk like smell). Celluloid can smell sappy. It is important to have clean surface. Oils or chemicals from handling or treatment respectively can effect rub and sniff testing. So it's a good idea to make sure the surface is clean. This should give you a pretty good idea of: 1) Whether or not all of the material is in fact the same material. 2) Whether the material is organic or synthetic 3) What material is comprised of. 4) Which if any pieces are repair/replacement pieces. Now as for the hot needle test. It is not as destructive or as extreme as it sounds. The mark left if bone or a synthetic material will be so tiny that no one is going to notice it if they are not looking for it likely. You're not looking to press the needle with any amount of force, just touch it with the very tip. sometimes you can even just hover it very closely to see an effect. And if a material is ivory or ceramic it absolutely will leave no mark. If you do get a small undesirable mark it is very easy to repair with a little super glue and same colored dust from a very light, non-invasive filing with something like an emery nail file. In general while a visual inspection can tell you a good deal. It's no way to go making a positive ID. Visual inspection is just one part of it. All of your senses and testing made to take advantage of those sense are important to make a positive ID on a material most of the time. Where it regards an enamel fill it does fit the region. Enamel inlay has been used for centuries globally. The exact ingredients very a lot from region to region and even person to person. But the basic technique is to impregnate some sort of resin or adhesive with a either a pigment or insoluble material in dust form (for instance if you were to repair a small pin hole mark left by needle testing. The method prescribed is technically an enamel fill). Usually the dust used (if dust and not a pigment) is made of the same material that accompanying scaling, plating, pining, or shodding is. So if that is an enamel fill then the secondary ingredient is likely made of dust from the same material as the scales (so it could be an ivory or bone enamel fill). This is usually done so that the effect of aging is as close to consistent as possible.