Tipu Sword

Jens Nordlunde · 11th January 2005, 04:15 PM

It would be interesting to see a better picture, but which of these museums are you referring to?
Museums of Rajasthan : Ajmer Government Museum | Alwar Government Museum | Amer (Jaipur) Archaeological Museum | Virat Nagar Museum | Bharatpur Government Museum | Bikaner Fort Museum | Shri Sardul Museum and Anup Library | Ganga Golden Jubilee Museum

Jens

B.I · 11th January 2005, 05:16 PM

a wonderful concoction of institutions

the bikaner collection is divided between the fort museum, and the jubilee museum (i think, form memory) and both are in bikaner. the maharaja has his own collection.
more on the sword -
the blade is actually a sossun pata, which makes it even more intriguing. the inscription bears the name 'sultan jalal-ud-din akbar' and is dated AH 1012 (1603). as the rajput line of bikaner were long under the dominionship of dehli, it is not known whether the sword was given by jahangir to raja sur singhji on the occasion of his investiture, or had already been presented to rai singhji by akbar, or was selected merely as a reminder to serve jahangir as faithfully as sur singhs father had served akbar (goetz).

Jens Nordlunde · 11th January 2005, 09:38 PM

Ah I see, now you are giving a bit in, telling some more about the blad, what is next?
The museums mentiond are all supposed to be in the Bikane region.

Best
Jens

B.I · 11th January 2005, 10:02 PM

yes, jens, but the two i mentioned are in bikaner itself, not just in the surrounding area.
sorry about the blade information. unlike jim, i dont walk through the day with a library crammed in my head

i was pleasantly surprised by the blade shape, hinting it is not persian as i wrongly surmised.
you can get away with being wrong if you catch yourself out before others do!

Mare Rosu · 13th January 2005, 12:26 AM

Hi Brian:
Very interesting and informative article on Tipu Sultan sword.
I need to ask a question or two. #1 What sword are we talking about? I think the picture you show ( the first one) is not the same sword that Dr. Pant shows in his volume #2 ( I did an exhaustive and very comprehensive and through study of my references, my one book!

) so which one is right?
the picture in Dr. Pant book show a sword with a knuckle guard and your picture show a sword without a knuckle guard. Both were taken from his bedchamber
#2 Why would anyone in the position as Tipu even consider a blade made elsewhere. At that time the folks in Europe were trying to make Wootz steel but could not as they knew that the wootz steel was far superior to European steel.
Here is an article from the Department of Metallurgy, Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore India The link to the web page is;
http://met.iisc.ernet.in/~rangu/text.pdf.
The article talks about Tipu sword and also a great article on Wootz.
However be prepared to sit back and read for a while as the article is 90 pages long, the section on Tipu sword is on pages 45-46.

B.I · 13th January 2005, 10:06 AM

hi earl,
dont expect an answer so soon. 90 pages!! your questions dont come cheap

jim would read this over breakfast. jens would spend a little longer, as he is more laid back and lives on a mountain, so he has a very distracting view outside his window.
me, i dont think i have that much time left on this planet to cover 90 pages of wootz study! just joking, will pour through it and skip the raw data and find the interesting bits.
can you scan in the picture from pant and post it? i have always doubted the piece in the dehli museum. the sword i posted in the original bedchamber sword, as it was inscribed just after the storming and before it was presented to baird.
although much of the wootz originated from the south, the blades were not revered. local 'fashion' lent towards the european imported blade. this is an on going discussion/debate, as to the importance of wootz in the south. the metalwork itself was untouched and the quality domintated the north (the ancusai discussed in elgoods forthcoming book show this) but you will find the finest worked steel hilts with european blades, created within the heart of the wootz region.
walhouse was present during the emptying of the tanjore armoury and he was surprised to note the amount of european blades on native hilts. there ar emany swords attributed to tipu, some more believable than others. he is well known to have had a collection of swords, which he alternated in use (hence, having a sword brought to his bedchamber every day)
there are 4 tipu swords of a specific type (hilt) that each have different blades. one is owned by the queen, one in the british museum, and 2 (including his 'beheading' sword) are in private collections. the hilts are of pure mysore design and tipuesque. all 4 of these swords were attributed to important people at the seige and were given as gifts of the time. 2 of these i know have european blades, and i think the other 2 do as well, from description but can only speculate.
the stibbert collection holds a fabulous tipu sword of high quality and design which, if not held by tipu himself, then must have been through him to one of his closest. the blade is without a doubt european (and not even of great quality) and has been decorated in gold with his tiger motif.
powis castle holds two tipu swords, collected by lord clive who sought his items at the time. these two swords are without a doubt his (due to clives connections of the time) and both hold mysore hilts. its been a while since i've seen them, but one definately has a european blade and the other most likely.
the wellington sword, although sheathed, probably doesnt. the hilt has no real connection with the region and it was most likely a gift to the court. from the quality of the hilt i would guess at an indian blade, even though straight double edged indian blades were relatively scarce and of uncommon design. i will strive to find out more on this piece.
the wallace collection holds a tipu sword which, again, doesnt have the form associated with tipus taste. the hilt is jade and the blade wootz, and again, incorporates the tiger motif. like the wellington sword, this could have been a gift, decorated whilst in tipus possession.
none of this actually answers your question. why were european blades favoured over wootz? in tipus court (which doesnt speak for the rest of the south) he seemed to cater for the fashion of the time. the trade routes in the south, both through the french and portuguese were extensive and there are early accounts of the bazaars selling european trade blades. there are accounts from early english sources, claiming they would not use native steel as 'butterknives' as there are brittle and not usable on a battle field. obviously these accounts are biased, but tipus reluctance and the evidence found at tanjore hint that this may have been a native feeling as well.
i think finding images of the tipus swords (those with some provenance) will be good to show.
or, maybe finding images is a delaying tactic to avoid reading 90 pages

i can hear mr mcdougall chuckling.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th January 2005, 11:20 AM

Earl, thank you for the link – a print is ready for reading.

Brian, do you think that all the bedchamber swords found after Tipoo is be course he slept in the armoury?
I have a better picture of the hilt, plus a picture of the whole sword, from the auction catalogue.
Treasurers from India, The Clive Collection at Powis Castle. Herbert Press, England, 1987. In the book are shown a number of swords, katars and daggers, and like Brian says two are said to have been Tipoo’s.
I think it was in Travels in the Mogul Empire A.D. 1656-1668 by François Bernier, I read, that in the Sind area they did not like the European blades, as they found the steel inferior to the Indian steel.
Something went wrong I don't seem to be able to attach the picture of the whole sword - sorry.

11th January 2005, 10:02 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	museums yes, jens, but the two i mentioned are in bikaner itself, not just in the surrounding area. sorry about the blade information. unlike jim, i dont walk through the day with a library crammed in my head i was pleasantly surprised by the blade shape, hinting it is not persian as i wrongly surmised. you can get away with being wrong if you catch yourself out before others do!

13th January 2005, 12:26 AM	#5
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Tipu sword which one? Hi Brian: Very interesting and informative article on Tipu Sultan sword. I need to ask a question or two. #1 What sword are we talking about? I think the picture you show ( the first one) is not the same sword that Dr. Pant shows in his volume #2 ( I did an exhaustive and very comprehensive and through study of my references, my one book! ) so which one is right? the picture in Dr. Pant book show a sword with a knuckle guard and your picture show a sword without a knuckle guard. Both were taken from his bedchamber #2 Why would anyone in the position as Tipu even consider a blade made elsewhere. At that time the folks in Europe were trying to make Wootz steel but could not as they knew that the wootz steel was far superior to European steel. Here is an article from the Department of Metallurgy, Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore India The link to the web page is; http://met.iisc.ernet.in/~rangu/text.pdf. The article talks about Tipu sword and also a great article on Wootz. However be prepared to sit back and read for a while as the article is 90 pages long, the section on Tipu sword is on pages 45-46.

13th January 2005, 11:20 AM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Earl, thank you for the link – a print is ready for reading. Brian, do you think that all the bedchamber swords found after Tipoo is be course he slept in the armoury? I have a better picture of the hilt, plus a picture of the whole sword, from the auction catalogue. Treasurers from India, The Clive Collection at Powis Castle. Herbert Press, England, 1987. In the book are shown a number of swords, katars and daggers, and like Brian says two are said to have been Tipoo’s. I think it was in Travels in the Mogul Empire A.D. 1656-1668 by François Bernier, I read, that in the Sind area they did not like the European blades, as they found the steel inferior to the Indian steel. Something went wrong I don't seem to be able to attach the picture of the whole sword - sorry. Attached Images

11th January 2005, 04:15 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It would be interesting to see a better picture, but which of these museums are you referring to? Museums of Rajasthan : Ajmer Government Museum \| Alwar Government Museum \| Amer (Jaipur) Archaeological Museum \| Virat Nagar Museum \| Bharatpur Government Museum \| Bikaner Fort Museum \| Shri Sardul Museum and Anup Library \| Ganga Golden Jubilee Museum Jens

11th January 2005, 05:16 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	museums and gifts a wonderful concoction of institutions the bikaner collection is divided between the fort museum, and the jubilee museum (i think, form memory) and both are in bikaner. the maharaja has his own collection. more on the sword - the blade is actually a sossun pata, which makes it even more intriguing. the inscription bears the name 'sultan jalal-ud-din akbar' and is dated AH 1012 (1603). as the rajput line of bikaner were long under the dominionship of dehli, it is not known whether the sword was given by jahangir to raja sur singhji on the occasion of his investiture, or had already been presented to rai singhji by akbar, or was selected merely as a reminder to serve jahangir as faithfully as sur singhs father had served akbar (goetz).

11th January 2005, 09:38 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ah I see, now you are giving a bit in, telling some more about the blad, what is next? The museums mentiond are all supposed to be in the Bikane region. Best Jens

13th January 2005, 10:06 AM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi earl, dont expect an answer so soon. 90 pages!! your questions dont come cheap jim would read this over breakfast. jens would spend a little longer, as he is more laid back and lives on a mountain, so he has a very distracting view outside his window. me, i dont think i have that much time left on this planet to cover 90 pages of wootz study! just joking, will pour through it and skip the raw data and find the interesting bits. can you scan in the picture from pant and post it? i have always doubted the piece in the dehli museum. the sword i posted in the original bedchamber sword, as it was inscribed just after the storming and before it was presented to baird. although much of the wootz originated from the south, the blades were not revered. local 'fashion' lent towards the european imported blade. this is an on going discussion/debate, as to the importance of wootz in the south. the metalwork itself was untouched and the quality domintated the north (the ancusai discussed in elgoods forthcoming book show this) but you will find the finest worked steel hilts with european blades, created within the heart of the wootz region. walhouse was present during the emptying of the tanjore armoury and he was surprised to note the amount of european blades on native hilts. there ar emany swords attributed to tipu, some more believable than others. he is well known to have had a collection of swords, which he alternated in use (hence, having a sword brought to his bedchamber every day) there are 4 tipu swords of a specific type (hilt) that each have different blades. one is owned by the queen, one in the british museum, and 2 (including his 'beheading' sword) are in private collections. the hilts are of pure mysore design and tipuesque. all 4 of these swords were attributed to important people at the seige and were given as gifts of the time. 2 of these i know have european blades, and i think the other 2 do as well, from description but can only speculate. the stibbert collection holds a fabulous tipu sword of high quality and design which, if not held by tipu himself, then must have been through him to one of his closest. the blade is without a doubt european (and not even of great quality) and has been decorated in gold with his tiger motif. powis castle holds two tipu swords, collected by lord clive who sought his items at the time. these two swords are without a doubt his (due to clives connections of the time) and both hold mysore hilts. its been a while since i've seen them, but one definately has a european blade and the other most likely. the wellington sword, although sheathed, probably doesnt. the hilt has no real connection with the region and it was most likely a gift to the court. from the quality of the hilt i would guess at an indian blade, even though straight double edged indian blades were relatively scarce and of uncommon design. i will strive to find out more on this piece. the wallace collection holds a tipu sword which, again, doesnt have the form associated with tipus taste. the hilt is jade and the blade wootz, and again, incorporates the tiger motif. like the wellington sword, this could have been a gift, decorated whilst in tipus possession. none of this actually answers your question. why were european blades favoured over wootz? in tipus court (which doesnt speak for the rest of the south) he seemed to cater for the fashion of the time. the trade routes in the south, both through the french and portuguese were extensive and there are early accounts of the bazaars selling european trade blades. there are accounts from early english sources, claiming they would not use native steel as 'butterknives' as there are brittle and not usable on a battle field. obviously these accounts are biased, but tipus reluctance and the evidence found at tanjore hint that this may have been a native feeling as well. i think finding images of the tipus swords (those with some provenance) will be good to show. or, maybe finding images is a delaying tactic to avoid reading 90 pages i can hear mr mcdougall chuckling.