English Sea Service Pistol?

Shakethetrees · 21st March 2016, 04:07 PM

It looks old, except for the ramrod.

However the lock and trigger guard do not look like British issue.

It appears to me to have been assembled from various parts a long time ago. The stock looks like a cut down carbine or musket stock due to the profile. The lack of a buttcap also gives me pause.

It has a great patina and appears to have been legitimately used a long time ago, but any further attribution at this point (in my opinion), is strictly conjecture.

Fernando K · 21st March 2016, 09:08 PM

Hello

Numerous lock have the screw securing the lock to the stock right spring frizzen, so that is not a feature to define the origin of the lock, also other differences with the lock rise by corrado, as the auction of noticeable frizzen, a difference in the conformation of the gooseneck and the shape of "banana shape" of the plate of the lock and the pan is rounded and not facetted and depressed area at the end of the plate.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Sorry for the translator

JamesKelly · 21st March 2016, 10:03 PM

For what it's worth, the "390" is some manner of museum mark, not original to the pistol.
The pan is faceted, not round
Barrel measurements show that it is not a cut down musket. The profile is identical to a light dragoon pistol, not to a Brown Bess.
Otherwise, thank you, Gentlemen, for looking it over.

Shakethetrees · 21st March 2016, 11:48 PM

Sometime Irish registry marks are stamped similar to this. Seeing how guns were so highly restricted there going way back, it wouldn't surprise me that it could have been put together there.

I don't think the shape of the pommel, length of the grip and lack of a buttcap make this a candidate to be a light Dragoon pistol!

corrado26 · 22nd March 2016, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

Numerous lock have the screw securing the lock to the stock right spring frizzen, so that is not a feature to define the origin of the lock,

So please be so kind and show me other locks with a flat plate and a flat swanneck cock that have this situation of the battery spring.
regards
corrado26

Fernando K · 22nd March 2016, 03:15 PM

Fernando K

corrado26 · 22nd March 2016, 04:06 PM

Ok, thank you, I forgot the Spanish flintlocks, but the lock of the pistol is certainly not a Spanish one
Regards
corrado26

Fernando K · 22nd March 2016, 10:03 PM

Hello

If, of course, the lock is not Spanish. Only me just say that the flat shape of the plate, the hammer-shaped gooseneck, the bowl round. the auction of frizzen, and the front screw lock are numerous and do not serve to ensure the origin. Subi image of Spanish solamentre lock as an example

Affectionately. Fernando K

JamesKelly · 23rd March 2016, 12:53 AM

OK, to clarify. It is the outside dimensions of the BARREL that are about the same as my light dragoon pistol. Not the stock, not the hardware.
I noted this to confirm that, whatever is this pistol, it is NOT a cut down musket or carbine. At least, when I hold it in front of a Long Land and an India pattern Brown Bess it is clear that this pistol could not come out of that pattern wood, likewise the breech diameter of the musket is quite a bit larger..
The sideplate of the pistol in service is stamped 94, which corresponds to the 94 (not shown) stamped deeply into the wood, right side of grip. I might guess that this stood for 1794, much as 08 on a long dragoon pistol meant, I dare say, 1808. With quite a bit of imagination one might discern English proof marks near the breech. It was a kindness of someone to paint it black, as corrosion has taken its toll.
I have had the impression that the British used simpler, or older, patterns for the Sea Service. I suppose I got this from Battle Weapons of the American Revolution, George C. Neumann, ©1998. Specific examples that have features somewhat like my pistol are: page 34 (5) Circa 1750-1780, flat sea service lock . . . frizzen often squared; page 77 27.MM English Sea Service , . . the lock and furniture continued to follow early Queen Anne period styling . . . a rounded trigger guard front terminal. . .
You gentlemen have inspired me to do the homework I should have earlier. I really don't know much about English Sea Service firearms. I would be thankful if someone would point me to an appropriate reference book other than Neumann.

22nd March 2016, 03:15 PM	#6
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Lock Fernando K Attached Images

23rd March 2016, 12:53 AM	#9
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	OK, to clarify. It is the outside dimensions of the BARREL that are about the same as my light dragoon pistol. Not the stock, not the hardware. I noted this to confirm that, whatever is this pistol, it is NOT a cut down musket or carbine. At least, when I hold it in front of a Long Land and an India pattern Brown Bess it is clear that this pistol could not come out of that pattern wood, likewise the breech diameter of the musket is quite a bit larger.. The sideplate of the pistol in service is stamped 94, which corresponds to the 94 (not shown) stamped deeply into the wood, right side of grip. I might guess that this stood for 1794, much as 08 on a long dragoon pistol meant, I dare say, 1808. With quite a bit of imagination one might discern English proof marks near the breech. It was a kindness of someone to paint it black, as corrosion has taken its toll. I have had the impression that the British used simpler, or older, patterns for the Sea Service. I suppose I got this from Battle Weapons of the American Revolution, George C. Neumann, ©1998. Specific examples that have features somewhat like my pistol are: page 34 (5) Circa 1750-1780, flat sea service lock . . . frizzen often squared; page 77 27.MM English Sea Service , . . the lock and furniture continued to follow early Queen Anne period styling . . . a rounded trigger guard front terminal. . . You gentlemen have inspired me to do the homework I should have earlier. I really don't know much about English Sea Service firearms. I would be thankful if someone would point me to an appropriate reference book other than Neumann. Attached Images

21st March 2016, 04:07 PM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	It looks old, except for the ramrod. However the lock and trigger guard do not look like British issue. It appears to me to have been assembled from various parts a long time ago. The stock looks like a cut down carbine or musket stock due to the profile. The lack of a buttcap also gives me pause. It has a great patina and appears to have been legitimately used a long time ago, but any further attribution at this point (in my opinion), is strictly conjecture.

21st March 2016, 09:08 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello Numerous lock have the screw securing the lock to the stock right spring frizzen, so that is not a feature to define the origin of the lock, also other differences with the lock rise by corrado, as the auction of noticeable frizzen, a difference in the conformation of the gooseneck and the shape of "banana shape" of the plate of the lock and the pan is rounded and not facetted and depressed area at the end of the plate. Affectionately. Fernando K Sorry for the translator

21st March 2016, 10:03 PM	#3
JamesKelly Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Michigan, U.S.A. Posts: 108	For what it's worth, the "390" is some manner of museum mark, not original to the pistol. The pan is faceted, not round Barrel measurements show that it is not a cut down musket. The profile is identical to a light dragoon pistol, not to a Brown Bess. Otherwise, thank you, Gentlemen, for looking it over.

21st March 2016, 11:48 PM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Sometime Irish registry marks are stamped similar to this. Seeing how guns were so highly restricted there going way back, it wouldn't surprise me that it could have been put together there. I don't think the shape of the pommel, length of the grip and lack of a buttcap make this a candidate to be a light Dragoon pistol!

22nd March 2016, 04:06 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,237	Ok, thank you, I forgot the Spanish flintlocks, but the lock of the pistol is certainly not a Spanish one Regards corrado26

22nd March 2016, 10:03 PM	#8
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello If, of course, the lock is not Spanish. Only me just say that the flat shape of the plate, the hammer-shaped gooseneck, the bowl round. the auction of frizzen, and the front screw lock are numerous and do not serve to ensure the origin. Subi image of Spanish solamentre lock as an example Affectionately. Fernando K