Is this a legit shashka?

Alex K · 21st March 2016, 02:35 PM

Many thanks for the informative replies! And Robert, thanks for editing my post so it meets the image posting requirements.

I guess this is one of those caveat emptor cases. Luckily I didn't pay too much for it, and it actually handles fairly decently for whatever it is. Despite its light weight, it doesn't feel 'whippy' and feels like it could cut reasonably well.

I've done some sleuthing around and it looks like this frankentulwar/sabre was auctioned a couple of years ago, except it wasn't sold as a shashka but as an "Old English sword blade, later mounted in stag horn handle". Looks like someone cleaned it up and tried to pass it off as a shashka to overeager folks like myself.

Does the blunt ricasso lend credence to it being a tulwar blade rather than a trade blade? Were European trade blades sharpened all the way down to the hilt? The blade seems a bit too dainty for it to be a tulwar, and most tulwar examples I've seen tend to be quite a bit wider near the tip. Do you guys perhaps have pics of tulwars or sabres with a similar blade shape? Jim, I'm particularly interested in those 18th century German sabre blades you mentioned.

Some stats:

Weight: 600-625g (my scale isn't particularly accurate)
Point of Balance: 20.3cm
Blade Length: 83.7cm
Total length: 98.6cm
Centre of Percussion: (very roughly) 16cm from the tip
Blade width at CoP: 3cm

Width of spine
Base: 7.01mm
1/4: 4.76mm
1/2: 3.72mm
3/4: 1.83
10cm from the tip: 0.95mm

Jim McDougall · 21st March 2016, 11:38 PM

Alex,
Actually as far as I know, European blades were indeed sharpened down to the hilt. The so called 'Indian ricasso' on their blades is believed to have to do with a certain propensity to curl the index finger around the quillon to support the blow of the sword. This is of course highly debated, but it seems enough support has been around to suggest this is quite likely.
Naturally, there are those who insist that the finger would be in danger in that position, but in typical combat the warrior parried with his dhal (shield),

To see a similar blade look to the thread on 'European blades in Indian Weapons' and the post by Estcrh which has linked an article by Robert Elgood which touches on this topic. In the linked article look at figure #7, a piso podang with one of these sabre blades, in this case with the familiar 'sickle marks'. With that, I might rethink my suggestion for German on the blade and suggest Styrian, more commonly with these kinds of fullers. The Indian armourers began copying these blades, and apart from that distinct ricasso they were pretty convincing.

Remember that the term shashka is of course a rather loosely used term and in the Russian military, even the D guard sabres are termed shashka.
It seems this describer either simply used the term as a lead in or perhaps simply assumed any sword without a guard must be a shashka? We can only wonder

While there are always many intriguing possible scenarios, it may simply be an innovative dealer creating a novelty with blade and stag horn grip.

kronckew · 22nd March 2016, 01:48 AM

reminds me of the whotsit i posted a few years back. HERE

Jim McDougall · 22nd March 2016, 02:44 AM

A stag horn Khyber!!!

No idea who fabricated these and when , but they do look impressive.

kronckew · 22nd March 2016, 11:20 AM

just a short comment: there seem to be a number of russian military shashkas from zlaloust with simple D or P guards. observing their corresponding scabbards i noted that the suspension rings are on the outside of the curve rather than on the normal inside as used elsewhere. it appears this is what sets these shashka aside from a sabre.

21st March 2016, 02:35 PM	#1
Alex K Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3	Many thanks for the informative replies! And Robert, thanks for editing my post so it meets the image posting requirements. I guess this is one of those caveat emptor cases. Luckily I didn't pay too much for it, and it actually handles fairly decently for whatever it is. Despite its light weight, it doesn't feel 'whippy' and feels like it could cut reasonably well. I've done some sleuthing around and it looks like this frankentulwar/sabre was auctioned a couple of years ago, except it wasn't sold as a shashka but as an "Old English sword blade, later mounted in stag horn handle". Looks like someone cleaned it up and tried to pass it off as a shashka to overeager folks like myself. Does the blunt ricasso lend credence to it being a tulwar blade rather than a trade blade? Were European trade blades sharpened all the way down to the hilt? The blade seems a bit too dainty for it to be a tulwar, and most tulwar examples I've seen tend to be quite a bit wider near the tip. Do you guys perhaps have pics of tulwars or sabres with a similar blade shape? Jim, I'm particularly interested in those 18th century German sabre blades you mentioned. Some stats: Weight: 600-625g (my scale isn't particularly accurate) Point of Balance: 20.3cm Blade Length: 83.7cm Total length: 98.6cm Centre of Percussion: (very roughly) 16cm from the tip Blade width at CoP: 3cm Width of spine Base: 7.01mm 1/4: 4.76mm 1/2: 3.72mm 3/4: 1.83 10cm from the tip: 0.95mm Attached Images

22nd March 2016, 01:48 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	reminds me of the whotsit i posted a few years back. HERE Attached Images

21st March 2016, 11:38 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Alex, Actually as far as I know, European blades were indeed sharpened down to the hilt. The so called 'Indian ricasso' on their blades is believed to have to do with a certain propensity to curl the index finger around the quillon to support the blow of the sword. This is of course highly debated, but it seems enough support has been around to suggest this is quite likely. Naturally, there are those who insist that the finger would be in danger in that position, but in typical combat the warrior parried with his dhal (shield), To see a similar blade look to the thread on 'European blades in Indian Weapons' and the post by Estcrh which has linked an article by Robert Elgood which touches on this topic. In the linked article look at figure #7, a piso podang with one of these sabre blades, in this case with the familiar 'sickle marks'. With that, I might rethink my suggestion for German on the blade and suggest Styrian, more commonly with these kinds of fullers. The Indian armourers began copying these blades, and apart from that distinct ricasso they were pretty convincing. Remember that the term shashka is of course a rather loosely used term and in the Russian military, even the D guard sabres are termed shashka. It seems this describer either simply used the term as a lead in or perhaps simply assumed any sword without a guard must be a shashka? We can only wonder While there are always many intriguing possible scenarios, it may simply be an innovative dealer creating a novelty with blade and stag horn grip.

22nd March 2016, 02:44 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	A stag horn Khyber!!! No idea who fabricated these and when , but they do look impressive.

22nd March 2016, 11:20 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	just a short comment: there seem to be a number of russian military shashkas from zlaloust with simple D or P guards. observing their corresponding scabbards i noted that the suspension rings are on the outside of the curve rather than on the normal inside as used elsewhere. it appears this is what sets these shashka aside from a sabre.