A riddle just for fun and learning

[mariusgmioc]

[QUOTE=ALEX]

Hello Alex,

The Qama is NOT single edged. The Qama is double edged... and identical to the Kindjal (one example is in the photo provided by Ibrahiim). If it is single edge, it is most likely a Qaddara wrongly named.

Qaddara is single edged, with slightly curved blade towards the tip (like the one in the original photos posted by Ariel).

Best regards,

Marius

PS: I assume that for every type of sword, you may find some exceptions that cannot be precisely classified as they display hybrid characteristics. But exceptions only confirm the rule.
PPS: You may find it useful to have a look at the thread posted by Miguel related to Quamas, Qaddaras and Kindjals.
And you may want to get the book "Arms and Armor of the Caucasus" by Kiril Rivkin, which I believe is the best reference book on this subject.

[ALEX]

For some reason I thought the Qama, being a "short sword", is more related to Quadara, and Kindjal being it's own, separate category.
Now I see I confused Qama with Quadarra. Qama is indeed a Kindjal category.
Marius, you were right!

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Marius, you were right!

... this time.

[ariel]

OK, the steam is definitely out, and no new suggestions have been posted.
Time for an answer.

Ian is absolutely correct: both are secondary products of broken standard blades.
Both come from Georgia.
In that part of the world wars were an uninterrupted chain of events. Weapons were consumed rapidly, and there was no sufficient capacity to renew their supply. People had to rely on "re-purposing" broken parts, blades in particular.

The upper one is Khevsurian Dashna. Pay attention to the blade: typical Khevsurian low quality job, and pretty old and worn to boot. The word "dashna" was mentioned in the Georgian dictionary of Sulhan Saba Orbeliani in the 17th century.
Classical examples had kindjal-like handles and plenty of brass on the handle and the scabbard.
The one I show is a much later example, mid 20 century: D-guard, handle materials.

Believe it or not, those were in active use even then, despite all the restrictions imposed by the Soviet regime. Khevsurs never paid much attention to any government:-)

The second one ( quaddara-like) is even more interesting.
I got information about it from Vakhtang Kiziria, a Georgian researcher, who wrote several articles about these short improvised weapons.
He consulted with 2 more Georgian weapons researchers and...

This is a weapon that originated in Eastern Georgia, Kakheti, and is locally known as Sabarkali.They were known there since the end of the 18th century till ~ 1820 ( when the Russians came). After that , beginning ~1850 they penetrated to the neighboring Armenia and Azerbaijan, where they were called Quaddara and widely used in the religious ceremonies of Ashura. Azeris expanded its presence to Persia.

My example has a village-made Georgian palash blade of unexpectedly high quality: no caverns at all and in more than 20 years since I got it, I did not oil it even once, and there is not a trace of rust, just thin beautiful patina. Ian was astute: the fuller goes ~2.5 inches inside the handle, indicating that the current blade is just a remainder of a broken old one. Taking into account chronology of Sabarkali ( beginning of 19th century at the latest), the blade must be even older.

Hope it was interesting and useful at least for somebody:-)

[mariusgmioc]

Hope it was interesting and useful at least for somebody:-)[/QUOTE]

Interesting indeed. Thank you!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

OK, the steam is definitely out, and no new suggestions have been posted.
Time for an answer.

Ian is absolutely correct: both are secondary products of broken standard blades.
Both come from Georgia.
In that part of the world wars were an uninterrupted chain of events. Weapons were consumed rapidly, and there was no sufficient capacity to renew their supply. People had to rely on "re-purposing" broken parts, blades in particular.

The upper one is Khevsurian Dashna. Pay attention to the blade: typical Khevsurian low quality job, and pretty old and worn to boot. The word "dashna" was mentioned in the Georgian dictionary of Sulhan Saba Orbeliani in the 17th century.
Classical examples had kindjal-like handles and plenty of brass on the handle and the scabbard.
The one I show is a much later example, mid 20 century: D-guard, handle materials.

Believe it or not, those were in active use even then, despite all the restrictions imposed by the Soviet regime. Khevsurs never paid much attention to any government:-)

The second one ( quaddara-like) is even more interesting.
I got information about it from Vakhtang Kiziria, a Georgian researcher, who wrote several articles about these short improvised weapons.
He consulted with 2 more Georgian weapons researchers and...

This is a weapon that originated in Eastern Georgia, Kakheti, and is locally known as Sabarkali.They were known there since the end of the 18th century till ~ 1820 ( when the Russians came). After that , beginning ~1850 they penetrated to the neighboring Armenia and Azerbaijan, where they were called Quaddara and widely used in the religious ceremonies of Ashura. Azeris expanded its presence to Persia.

My example has a village-made Georgian palash blade of unexpectedly high quality: no caverns at all and in more than 20 years since I got it, I did not oil it even once, and there is not a trace of rust, just thin beautiful patina. Ian was astute: the fuller goes ~2.5 inches inside the handle, indicating that the current blade is just a remainder of a broken old one. Taking into account chronology of Sabarkali ( beginning of 19th century at the latest), the blade must be even older.

Hope it was interesting and useful at least for somebody:-)

Salaams Ariel...Do I not get a consolation prize for guessing Georgia?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi,.

[ariel]

Ibrahiim and Ian: Gold medals for both of you:-)))))

[Jim McDougall]

Ariel, I think you deserve a gold medal as well!!
That write up and clearly explained post you placed on these was excellent! and it is great to have that kind of detail to better understand the esoterica of these forms.
Thank you.