An old Tibetan warrior

Philip · 7th March 2016, 07:12 AM

In Donald LaRocca's excellent catalogue of the exhibition WARRIORS OF THE HIMALAYAS, the spellings used are the "academic" transliterations. Likewise, the spellings of Sanskrit words in Dr Robert Elgood's HINDU ARMS AND RITUAL are the transliterations used in scholarly texts; both can be more than a little daunting to laymen trying to pronounce them!

In personal correspondence with Mr LaRocca some years ago, I brought up the term "ke tri" and was informed that there was no such term applicable to the classification of sword types. In identifying Tibetan swords by blade shape, the three most useful and accurate ones for students and collectors seem to be ral gri (acutely pointed blade), dpa dam (parallel-sided, straight, oblique tip profile), and shang-lang (convex curve, i.e. a saber, rarely encountered).

ariel · 7th March 2016, 09:38 AM

Philip,
The same Donald LaRocca gives a variant name of Dpa Dam as Sked Gri. Isn't it the very same Ke Tri that we knew as a definition for straight , parallel sided, hatchet-pointed blades?

You are right: academic phonetizations vs. "street" ones are always different. Professor Higgins made a living of it long time ago :-)))

And on top of it, local accents and dialects add yet another level of complexity /confusion. Australian English vs. Glaswegian, vs. Southern American, vs. Midwest vs " Brooklinese" or Bostonian etc, etc sound differently . And each of them would be transliterated differently by well -meaning educated persons of different ethnic backgrounds and different native languages.

Kilich, Klych or Kilij? Kard, Kord or Karud? Shashka or Chacheka?
That would be just a funny "name game" had it not been the mechanism of "creating" artificial terminology for the allegedly different variety of weapons we are dealing with.
Rather amusing, isn't it?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th March 2016, 01:04 PM

Salaams All Tibetan weapons must be one of the most difficulot subjects in our entire ensemble thus I note how well this thread examines this extraordinary subject . I offer this from https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tb...tbar.htmSwords

Quote."Swords were the primary handheld weapons in Tibet from at least the seventh up to the early twentieth century. In addition to their utilitarian function, they could also be clear indicators of rank and status, based on their quality or amount of decoration. In some situations, such as among the Khampa tribesmen of eastern Tibet, the sword was an essential part of male dress and still remains an important element of traditional attire. The sword also has rich symbolic significance within Tibetan Buddhism, particularly as the Sword of Wisdom, which represents the ability to cut through spiritual ignorance, and is an important attribute of many deities, such as Manjushri.

Many Tibetan swords are distinguished by light and dark lines that make a hairpin-shaped pattern visible on the surface of the blade (36.25.1464). This was formed by combining harder and softer iron, referred to as “male iron” and female iron” in traditional Tibetan texts, which was folded, nested together, and forged into one piece in a blade-making technique called pattern welding. The hilts are often made of engraved silver set with coral or turquoise, or in some rare instances are intricately chiseled and pierced in iron that is damascened in gold and silver (1995.136)".Unquote.

See also http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/13/ar...armo.html?_r=0

https://books.google.com.om/books?id...eapons&f=false

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Gavin Nugent · 9th March 2016, 05:39 AM

A little further note;

The sword as noted above, is mounted in silver dress to the scabbard. Of particular interest to me is the way in which the sword is hung. Although the full suspension trappings are not present, there is an anchor point at the back of the throat akin to Bhutan swords and it is mounted with blade up for a draw cut, something I have never seen in a Tibetan sword but I am sure exist.

The design elements to the silver are mostly unusual floral types with the drag showing two very long dragons entwined with a tree or vine, who then meet face to face with a large conch between their heads.

Gavin

7th March 2016, 07:12 AM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Tibetan arms terminology In Donald LaRocca's excellent catalogue of the exhibition WARRIORS OF THE HIMALAYAS, the spellings used are the "academic" transliterations. Likewise, the spellings of Sanskrit words in Dr Robert Elgood's HINDU ARMS AND RITUAL are the transliterations used in scholarly texts; both can be more than a little daunting to laymen trying to pronounce them! In personal correspondence with Mr LaRocca some years ago, I brought up the term "ke tri" and was informed that there was no such term applicable to the classification of sword types. In identifying Tibetan swords by blade shape, the three most useful and accurate ones for students and collectors seem to be ral gri (acutely pointed blade), dpa dam (parallel-sided, straight, oblique tip profile), and shang-lang (convex curve, i.e. a saber, rarely encountered).

7th March 2016, 09:38 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Philip, The same Donald LaRocca gives a variant name of Dpa Dam as Sked Gri. Isn't it the very same Ke Tri that we knew as a definition for straight , parallel sided, hatchet-pointed blades? You are right: academic phonetizations vs. "street" ones are always different. Professor Higgins made a living of it long time ago :-))) And on top of it, local accents and dialects add yet another level of complexity /confusion. Australian English vs. Glaswegian, vs. Southern American, vs. Midwest vs " Brooklinese" or Bostonian etc, etc sound differently . And each of them would be transliterated differently by well -meaning educated persons of different ethnic backgrounds and different native languages. Kilich, Klych or Kilij? Kard, Kord or Karud? Shashka or Chacheka? That would be just a funny "name game" had it not been the mechanism of "creating" artificial terminology for the allegedly different variety of weapons we are dealing with. Rather amusing, isn't it?

7th March 2016, 01:04 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All Tibetan weapons must be one of the most difficulot subjects in our entire ensemble thus I note how well this thread examines this extraordinary subject . I offer this from https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/tb...tbar.htmSwords Quote."Swords were the primary handheld weapons in Tibet from at least the seventh up to the early twentieth century. In addition to their utilitarian function, they could also be clear indicators of rank and status, based on their quality or amount of decoration. In some situations, such as among the Khampa tribesmen of eastern Tibet, the sword was an essential part of male dress and still remains an important element of traditional attire. The sword also has rich symbolic significance within Tibetan Buddhism, particularly as the Sword of Wisdom, which represents the ability to cut through spiritual ignorance, and is an important attribute of many deities, such as Manjushri. Many Tibetan swords are distinguished by light and dark lines that make a hairpin-shaped pattern visible on the surface of the blade (36.25.1464). This was formed by combining harder and softer iron, referred to as “male iron” and female iron” in traditional Tibetan texts, which was folded, nested together, and forged into one piece in a blade-making technique called pattern welding. The hilts are often made of engraved silver set with coral or turquoise, or in some rare instances are intricately chiseled and pierced in iron that is damascened in gold and silver (1995.136)".Unquote. See also http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/13/ar...armo.html?_r=0 https://books.google.com.om/books?id...eapons&f=false Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

9th March 2016, 05:39 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A little further note; The sword as noted above, is mounted in silver dress to the scabbard. Of particular interest to me is the way in which the sword is hung. Although the full suspension trappings are not present, there is an anchor point at the back of the throat akin to Bhutan swords and it is mounted with blade up for a draw cut, something I have never seen in a Tibetan sword but I am sure exist. The design elements to the silver are mostly unusual floral types with the drag showing two very long dragons entwined with a tree or vine, who then meet face to face with a large conch between their heads. Gavin