First Choora

Jim McDougall · 4th March 2016, 07:26 PM

While looking further into these interesting and unique daggers we now term 'choora',as explained in earlier posts, I would like to express some thoughts on the possible origins of this apparent variant form of 'karud'.
It seems it has been suggested that in many cases karud blades have been remounted in these uniquely charactered hilts.

In looking at the map earlier posted, the Mahsud territories are directly adjacent to Bannu, and Egerton I believe did note Bannu provenance to one of these.

Some will recall discussions we have had regarding the small 'crow beak' type pickaxes which have been termed (in these collectors parlances), the 'lohar'. Stone claims they are attributed to the 'Banochie' (Bannuchi) tribes of Khyber regions (pp. 418-19). While this attribution may have some merit, the term for these, 'lohar' is believed to derive from itinerant blacksmiths of Rajasthani ancestry known as the Gadia Lohars (the term lohar may be Hindi for iron).

In some of the later (1920s+) versions of these they are folding (as attached) and the general themes of motif seem to correspond to these 'choora' in cases.

The pickaxe lohars are actually quite small, and suggest being covert weapons during British occupations in these areas where obviously arms were prohibited so easily concealed. Possibly these small daggers (often seeming to be small cousins of the larger Khyber knives) might have been produced by these 'Lohars' also, and became a locally favored form.

As seen by Egerton, his sketch seems to approximate the hooked style of the pommel of these (see also the lohar of 20th c. carrying similar style) but he termed it simply pesh kabz as the collective term for some of these forms .

It seems I was once told these 'choora' are typically without wootz blades. Possibly those which are actually have remounted karud blades which of course have the same basic profile?

Gav, thank you for the kind words on my earlier post.

Mahratt, I hope you might consider my suggestions here as you I know have done quite a bit of research on these daggers, and I wonder if you think this perspective might be viable.

Harry, as Ariel has noted, though it is very difficult to date these, it must be remembered that these weapons from those regions in the early 20t into the 1930s were in every bit as much drama, combat and intrigue as through the previous century. These are the regions of the "Great Game" and I would recommend getting that book by Peter Hopkirk which would add tremendous dimension to this wonderful dagger.

harrywagner · 5th March 2016, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Harry, as Ariel has noted, though it is very difficult to date these, it must be remembered that these weapons from those regions in the early 20t into the 1930s were in every bit as much drama, combat and intrigue as through the previous century. These are the regions of the "Great Game" and I would recommend getting that book by Peter Hopkirk which would add tremendous dimension to this wonderful dagger.

Thanks Jim! I will add that book to my reading list. We have an outstanding library where I live so I am fairly certain I can borrow a copy. I am not worried at all about this knife's age. It's not new, nor a fake, reproduction nor tourist piece, so I am happy. Thanks again for your help!

ariel · 6th March 2016, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It seems I was once told these 'choora' are typically without wootz blades. Possibly those which are actually have remounted karud blades which of course have the same basic profile?

Jim, I suspect the same.

Both "Choora" and " Karud" are essentially the same pattern. Their blades are identical in form and dimensions. In contrast, their handles vary enormously. The only explanation of the difference is likely to be a place of manufacture ( or, if one wishes, ethnicity of the manufacturers)

We know of the so-called "Karuds" that they were made and used in Afghanistan, Central Asia and India, In contrast, "Choora" was always ascribed to the Khyber Pass area, and there are no known examples from other parts of Afghanistan or Central Asian Khanates.

IMXO, most likely explanation is the tribal belonging of the owner/ maker.

Trade blades traveled far and wide, but were mounted according to the ethnic/tribal identity of the end owner.
The same Persian saber blade could become an Indian Tulwar, Afghani Pulwar, Syrian or South Arabian Saif, Georgian Khmali, Moroccan or Omani Nimcha, Sumatran Piso Podang or just Persian Shamshir. Trade yataghan blades were fitted with small silver Cretan handles or with massive ivory ones from the Balkans. Yemeni jambiyas can be attributed to a particular tribe/ social stratum only by the form and decoration of their hilts and scabbards. Egerton specifically mentioned that "Choora" blades were made in Kandahar ( likely plain) and Khorasan ( likely wootz).In Afghanistan, rich people could afford ivory handles and wootz blades.

I suspect that wootz blades were remounted time and again when the organic parts of the hilt broke down, because of their value and mystique.

Miguel · 10th March 2016, 04:29 PM

Congratulations Harry for initiating such an interesting and informative thread as this one is proving to be. I think that I have gleaned more from this thread than all the reference books. I like your Choora and it looks a good example of this weapon with the typical decoration found on them. I have a small collection of them and all but one have similar decoration to yours, their scabbards are of various materials and one is a pretty plain, a bit knocked about, brass one like yours. I hope you don't mind me using your thread to post a couple of photos of the Choora with different decoration as I would value comments on the hilt which I think has had its original pommel replaced with an aluminium one also I have not seen one where the bolster extends down the blade and is riveted like this one.

Jim in one of his informative replies mentioned that Stone used the name, Ch`hura, for a type of Afghan knife, I have come across this name before but as a general name, used in India , for a dagger ( Tirri plate 214in his book) He also uses the name Chhuri for a small dagger and Stone also uses this name. I have in my collection the two types of knives that Tirri uses to illustrate the above general names and I would like to know if this design of knife has a particular nam. The smaller of the two is the Chhuri.
Regards
Miguel

kronckew · 10th March 2016, 06:03 PM

i have a pesh kabz with a wooden grip that is of the same pattern, as well as a duplicate of it with the jade pommel and MOP inlays. both are well made and razor sharp.

i also have a smaller straighter version with a finger guard that is a lot more touristy and more like a letter opener. it's about a third shorter than the other two.

seems one man's pesh is another man's choora. no matter how you spell it or transliterate into western characters.

harrywagner · 10th March 2016, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Congratulations Harry for initiating such an interesting and informative thread as this one is proving to be. I think that I have gleaned more from this thread than all the reference books. I like your Choora and it looks a good example of this weapon with the typical decoration found on them. I have a small collection of them and all but one have similar decoration to yours, their scabbards are of various materials and one is a pretty plain, a bit knocked about, brass one like yours. I hope you don't mind me using your thread to post a couple of photos of the Choora with different decoration as I would value comments on the hilt which I think has had its original pommel replaced with an aluminium one also I have not seen one where the bolster extends down the blade and is riveted like this one.

Hi Miguel,
I don't mind at all. Thank you for posting them, and your kind words. Beautiful knives!

Ian · 11th March 2016, 01:55 PM

Kronckew:

The two you show with MOP inlays on the handles are from northern India, circa 1900. These were made largely for sale to Europeans who were touring India. A lot of them ended up in the U.K. (for obvious reasons). They are usually well made knives, and there is nothing shabby about how the better ones were made or whether they could be used as weapons.

Acid etching of English words on the blades is also found on some of these. Occasionally you find "kirpan" etched on them, presumably to indicate a Sikh association since all Sikh men, according to religious custom, are supposed to carry a knife (kirpan).

Ian.

estcrh · 11th March 2016, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Kronckew:

The two you show with MOP inlays on the handles are from northern India, circa 1900. These were made largely for sale to Europeans who were touring India. A lot of them ended up in the U.K. (for obvious reasons). They are usually well made knives, and there is nothing shabby about how the better ones were made or whether they could be used as weapons.

Acid etching of English words on the blades is also found on some of these. Occasionally you find "kirpan" etched on them, presumably to indicate a Sikh association since all Sikh men, according to religious custom, are supposed to carry a knife (kirpan).

Ian.

Then these two posted by Miguel would seem to be from the same place and time period as well.

harrywagner · 11th March 2016, 04:24 PM

This arrived today. It is a fairly plain choora compared to the others in this post, but it has the "Dumbo" ears, so I thought it might be of interest. I think the hilt is bone. At first I thought the nicks in the hilt might be decoration but am not sure about it now.

It looks more recent than my other. I am terrible at determining an object's age but will take a stab anyway. 1950-1970?

Harry

Miguel · 11th March 2016, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Then these two posted by Miguel would seem to be from the same place and time period as well.

Hi estcrh,

Thank you for asking Ian the question, I would think that the answer will be yes. The pics are great much better than mine.

Best regards

Miguel

Miguel · 11th March 2016, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Kronckew:

The two you show with MOP inlays on the handles are from northern India, circa 1900. These were made largely for sale to Europeans who were touring India. A lot of them ended up in the U.K. (for obvious reasons). They are usually well made knives, and there is nothing shabby about how the better ones were made or whether they could be used as weapons.

Acid etching of English words on the blades is also found on some of these. Occasionally you find "kirpan" etched on them, presumably to indicate a Sikh association since all Sikh men, according to religious custom, are supposed to carry a knife (kirpan).

Ian.

Hi Ian,

Very interesting info on this type of knife. I never thought them to be made for European tourists I always thought they were made as a good quality general purpose knife for home consumption much like sheath knives in the UK (when they could be worn without being arrested). I never thought them as being Pesh Kabz. I can now place them in my early tourist weapons folder, thank you.

I would be grateful if you could confirm whether this piece also falls into this category or if it is a genuine Pesh Kabz which I have always understood it to be.
Kind regards

Miguel

Miguel · 11th March 2016, 08:15 PM

Hi Harry,

That was quick, another nice one. I think it is more recent than your first one
but with a more prominent eared hilt. I don't think they are as upswept as some but still nice. You will have to be careful, these Chooras are addictive and you may end up with a collection of them before you know it. I know I did.

Kind regards

Miguel

estcrh · 12th March 2016, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

I would be grateful if you could confirm whether this piece also falls into this category or if it is a genuine Pesh Kabz which I have always understood it to be.
Kind regards

Miguel

Miquel, this is a pesh, it is hard to tell how old, any sign of wear?

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2016, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim, I suspect the same.

Both "Choora" and " Karud" are essentially the same pattern. Their blades are identical in form and dimensions. In contrast, their handles vary enormously. The only explanation of the difference is likely to be a place of manufacture ( or, if one wishes, ethnicity of the manufacturers)

We know of the so-called "Karuds" that they were made and used in Afghanistan, Central Asia and India, In contrast, "Choora" was always ascribed to the Khyber Pass area, and there are no known examples from other parts of Afghanistan or Central Asian Khanates.

IMXO, most likely explanation is the tribal belonging of the owner/ maker.

Trade blades traveled far and wide, but were mounted according to the ethnic/tribal identity of the end owner.
The same Persian saber blade could become an Indian Tulwar, Afghani Pulwar, Syrian or South Arabian Saif, Georgian Khmali, Moroccan or Omani Nimcha, Sumatran Piso Podang or just Persian Shamshir. Trade yataghan blades were fitted with small silver Cretan handles or with massive ivory ones from the Balkans. Yemeni jambiyas can be attributed to a particular tribe/ social stratum only by the form and decoration of their hilts and scabbards. Egerton specifically mentioned that "Choora" blades were made in Kandahar ( likely plain) and Khorasan ( likely wootz).In Afghanistan, rich people could afford ivory handles and wootz blades.

I suspect that wootz blades were remounted time and again when the organic parts of the hilt broke down, because of their value and mystique.

Ariel, sorry I missed responding to this after you were kind enough to respond to me personally. Very well noted on the karud and their blades being much wider spread in their use with the distinct deeply radiused blade and acute point.
Also you have well delineated the distribution of these other forms with these 'choora' being confined to Khyber Agency regions.

As I suggested earlier, it seems quite possible these were products of the Gandi Lohar groups in these regions using quite similar design and motifs found in the so called 'lohar' pick axes usually attributed to the Bannuchis (Stone).

While the form itself seems to have been around since mid 19th c. the term 'choora' seems to have been a more collective term used locally for knives or daggers in general, but after 1930s applied specifically to them .

Here, as often if not nearly always, collectors have created their own glossary of terms for various weapons, creating what we regard as the 'name game' in struggles to accurately discuss weapon forms.

Basically , collectors wish to classify weapons categorically in order to organize their groupings, while those studying the development and history of forms desperately seek links and cross references to track the forms in contemporary references and narratives.

All part of the excitement, adventure and frustration as we look into these conundrums!

4th March 2016, 07:26 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	While looking further into these interesting and unique daggers we now term 'choora',as explained in earlier posts, I would like to express some thoughts on the possible origins of this apparent variant form of 'karud'. It seems it has been suggested that in many cases karud blades have been remounted in these uniquely charactered hilts. In looking at the map earlier posted, the Mahsud territories are directly adjacent to Bannu, and Egerton I believe did note Bannu provenance to one of these. Some will recall discussions we have had regarding the small 'crow beak' type pickaxes which have been termed (in these collectors parlances), the 'lohar'. Stone claims they are attributed to the 'Banochie' (Bannuchi) tribes of Khyber regions (pp. 418-19). While this attribution may have some merit, the term for these, 'lohar' is believed to derive from itinerant blacksmiths of Rajasthani ancestry known as the Gadia Lohars (the term lohar may be Hindi for iron). In some of the later (1920s+) versions of these they are folding (as attached) and the general themes of motif seem to correspond to these 'choora' in cases. The pickaxe lohars are actually quite small, and suggest being covert weapons during British occupations in these areas where obviously arms were prohibited so easily concealed. Possibly these small daggers (often seeming to be small cousins of the larger Khyber knives) might have been produced by these 'Lohars' also, and became a locally favored form. As seen by Egerton, his sketch seems to approximate the hooked style of the pommel of these (see also the lohar of 20th c. carrying similar style) but he termed it simply pesh kabz as the collective term for some of these forms . It seems I was once told these 'choora' are typically without wootz blades. Possibly those which are actually have remounted karud blades which of course have the same basic profile? Gav, thank you for the kind words on my earlier post. Mahratt, I hope you might consider my suggestions here as you I know have done quite a bit of research on these daggers, and I wonder if you think this perspective might be viable. Harry, as Ariel has noted, though it is very difficult to date these, it must be remembered that these weapons from those regions in the early 20t into the 1930s were in every bit as much drama, combat and intrigue as through the previous century. These are the regions of the "Great Game" and I would recommend getting that book by Peter Hopkirk which would add tremendous dimension to this wonderful dagger. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th March 2016 at 09:31 PM.

10th March 2016, 04:29 PM	#4
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Congratulations Harry for initiating such an interesting and informative thread as this one is proving to be. I think that I have gleaned more from this thread than all the reference books. I like your Choora and it looks a good example of this weapon with the typical decoration found on them. I have a small collection of them and all but one have similar decoration to yours, their scabbards are of various materials and one is a pretty plain, a bit knocked about, brass one like yours. I hope you don't mind me using your thread to post a couple of photos of the Choora with different decoration as I would value comments on the hilt which I think has had its original pommel replaced with an aluminium one also I have not seen one where the bolster extends down the blade and is riveted like this one. Jim in one of his informative replies mentioned that Stone used the name, Ch`hura, for a type of Afghan knife, I have come across this name before but as a general name, used in India , for a dagger ( Tirri plate 214in his book) He also uses the name Chhuri for a small dagger and Stone also uses this name. I have in my collection the two types of knives that Tirri uses to illustrate the above general names and I would like to know if this design of knife has a particular nam. The smaller of the two is the Chhuri. Regards Miguel Attached Images

10th March 2016, 06:03 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	i have a pesh kabz with a wooden grip that is of the same pattern, as well as a duplicate of it with the jade pommel and MOP inlays. both are well made and razor sharp. i also have a smaller straighter version with a finger guard that is a lot more touristy and more like a letter opener. it's about a third shorter than the other two. seems one man's pesh is another man's choora. no matter how you spell it or transliterate into western characters. Attached Images

11th March 2016, 04:24 PM	#9
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	New Choora This arrived today. It is a fairly plain choora compared to the others in this post, but it has the "Dumbo" ears, so I thought it might be of interest. I think the hilt is bone. At first I thought the nicks in the hilt might be decoration but am not sure about it now. It looks more recent than my other. I am terrible at determining an object's age but will take a stab anyway. 1950-1970? Harry Attached Images

11th March 2016, 08:15 PM	#12
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Latest Choora Hi Harry, That was quick, another nice one. I think it is more recent than your first one but with a more prominent eared hilt. I don't think they are as upswept as some but still nice. You will have to be careful, these Chooras are addictive and you may end up with a collection of them before you know it. I know I did. Kind regards Miguel

11th March 2016, 01:55 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,453	Kronckew: The two you show with MOP inlays on the handles are from northern India, circa 1900. These were made largely for sale to Europeans who were touring India. A lot of them ended up in the U.K. (for obvious reasons). They are usually well made knives, and there is nothing shabby about how the better ones were made or whether they could be used as weapons. Acid etching of English words on the blades is also found on some of these. Occasionally you find "kirpan" etched on them, presumably to indicate a Sikh association since all Sikh men, according to religious custom, are supposed to carry a knife (kirpan). Ian.