An unusual Shaska

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by arsendaday

Harry, I was bidding on this one myself, but it got too expensive for me. I was really curious about this one as well and its good that a member of this forum got it so we can discuss it here. For all it's similarities to a Caucasian shashka it was never one. I am basing my opinion on the outer side of the handle: as it can bee seen it has a little bump just before the cross-guard and no shashka Caucasian or Russian has that. This bump is not added, because the blade tang has the same form. In most Caucasian and early Russian shashkas the outer edge of the handle is flat and continues almost seamlessly into the blade. Some of them have a handle that is slightly larger than the blade, but still there are no bumps or protrusions on them. The later Russian and Soviet shashka handles have three parts and put together they are a bit larger than the blade but still follow the same outline. IMHO this sword was thought and made this way and not modified. I think this was an experiment to incorporate a crossguard to a shashka type sword for the protection, as the Russians did with their Dragoon shashkas. Below are the photos of a
1. Caucasian shashka handle (Silver)
2. Russian shashka handle
3. Russian Dragoon shashka handle (with a guard)

Arsendaday,
VERY well observed!! and that did not even register as I viewed these pictures!
That unusual 'flare which sweeps outward to correspond to the guard is also congruent with the tang suggesting of course that the blade and hilt was an intended match, rather than a reworked shashka.
As you have well noted, on Caucasian shashkas this feature of the tang is not really normal.......nor why would it be?

This of course lends to the idea that perhaps this could be a prototype or one off form intended for ethnically oriented units in Ottoman forces, and that would make this a particularly exciting sword .

Earlier I had noted a certain type of sabre with an Ottoman style (pistol grip) in the style of the familiar kilij/pala, but with a fully intended stirrup type knuckleguard in European style.
I will try to get an illustration but I have been told these were apparently specifically for Ottoman forces in Hungarian context. These have occurred in notable numbers over the years, so we know they were an actual form so intended for this type of dissemination.

Kubur, good note on the 'V' marking, which as you suggest could be a regimental or 'rack' number. Could this be such a number related to one of these prototype situations where a select number of these were produced?

Harry, getting old enough to retire does not mean you're an old geezer!!
I stopped collecting just before retiring but still fascinated with studying the weapons I have and those others find, as you have done here.
This sword is a great example of the importance of keeping our studies going....so great job!!!

Estcrh......Im gonna find that term!!! its drivin me nuts.

[Jim McDougall]

In my post #3, I mentioned unusual sabres with Ottoman grips which had a European style guard and knucklebow, which seemed pertinent here as we consider these rather hybridized forms. This one Gav had some time ago and the photo is of this form. It seems to have had Hungarian associations as well of course as Ottoman influence, and I wonder if perhaps these might have been involved with Ottoman forces, perhaps in Balkans .

There is a sabre with the pistol grip hilt and crossguard with elliptical langet/quillon block with alternating quillons but no knuckleguard which is attributed (noted probably in reference) to Hungarian light cavalry early 19th to mid. ("Edged Weapons: Sabers of the Habsburg Empire 16th-2th c" Konopisky& Moudry, 1991, Prague, pp.68-69), but this only suggests that pistol grip hilts were not unknown in Hungarian context

Returning to the 'shashka' type example in discussion, it is tempting to suggest the cleft may be related to Ottoman yataghans, but the hilt and cleft features are more of Caucasian shashka style.

It seems quite possible for this example attached here to possibly be aligned with Ottoman presence in Balkans (the blade here has the familiar sun and moon inscribed as on Hungarian forms).
With the wide influences of the Ottoman Empire diffused through these many countries and regions it is a challenge to determine just what classification to set on these hybrids.

* Gavin Nugent photo

[arsendaday]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In my post #3, I mentioned unusual sabres with Ottoman grips which had a European style guard and knucklebow, which seemed pertinent here as we consider these rather hybridized forms. This one Gav had some time ago and the photo is of this form. It seems to have had Hungarian associations as well of course as Ottoman influence, and I wonder if perhaps these might have been involved with Ottoman forces, perhaps in Balkans .

There is a sabre with the pistol grip hilt and crossguard with elliptical langet/quillon block with alternating quillons but no knuckleguard which is attributed (noted probably in reference) to Hungarian light cavalry early 19th to mid. ("Edged Weapons: Sabers of the Habsburg Empire 16th-2th c" Konopisky& Moudry, 1991, Prague, pp.68-69), but this only suggests that pistol grip hilts were not unknown in Hungarian context

Returning to the 'shashka' type example in discussion, it is tempting to suggest the cleft may be related to Ottoman yataghans, but the hilt and cleft features are more of Caucasian shashka style.

It seems quite possible for this example attached here to possibly be aligned with Ottoman presence in Balkans (the blade here has the familiar sun and moon inscribed as on Hungarian forms).
With the wide influences of the Ottoman Empire diffused through these many countries and regions it is a challenge to determine just what classification to set on these hybrids.

* Gavin Nugent photo

I think at some point a fighter who is used to a certain type of handle/hilt and is given a totally different weapon to fight with, (due to switching sides or alliances, or acquiring a blade in the battle) will take his weapon to a weapon-smith and have it modified. And the weapon-smith being a local would have to modify what he has a and try to make it into what the client wants. This photo in my opinion is exactly such example. The cross guard only looks like a European one, but it is very obvious that this is a modified version of a regular Middle-Eastern cross-guard. And the smith did not add anything on an existing guard, but just made the cross-guard the way he knew how and just made the guards longer and curved them. Even the tip of one of the guards is typical Middle-Eastern.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Estcrh......Im gonna find that term!!! its drivin me nuts.

Jim, is this it

wire stitched in the traditional "Steps of Allah" style