My First Kris

arsendaday · 2nd March 2016, 02:11 AM

Hi everyone. My apologies for being a little confused about the "Kris" & "Keris". When I was buying these daggers the descriptions on all of them had kris and keris in them, but I am learning and will be more careful next time. I really appreciate all the input and comments.

As for the blade bending; I am not doing it all the way, nor did I ever ruin any blades by doing so. What I am doing is feeling it a little bit, to determine if it is a quality steel or not. As most of you know the European blades are very springy and some of them can be bent well over 45 degrees without any harm to the blade. More over in Russian factories in Zlatoust and Izhevsk that's how they determined if the blade is of good quality or not, i.e. by hanging weight from the tip of the blade and checking how much weight it would take before it would bend out of shape. BTW the markings on some of the early Soviet Shashkas meant just that: i.e. 15КГ or 17КГ meaning 15 or 17 kilograms, before the blade would not bend back to its original form completely. So one CAN and SHOULD try to bend the blade, while trying to determine the quality of the steel, without being afraid to break it. And if your shashka doesn't bend more than 30 degrees and spring back completely than it's a fake for sure. I would not really hang any weights from my blades for sure, and if the blade is too old or valuable I just leave them be, but I have a very old Caucasian Shashka that can be bend almost into a circle without any damage to the blade. And bunch of other Russian and European swords and daggers that will bend to a certain degree. As one old sayings goes "a shashka should be as elastic as a vine..."

But I digress. I will probably start a new thread about the elasticity of the bladed weapons, with the moderators' permission of course, as soon as I have enough material to do so. In the meantime I will try to learn more about the Kris and Keris, because I find these weapons very fascinating. Thanks again.

P.S. Here are some photos of the markings that I was talking about. The first one is a real mark of a 1927 NKVD Shaska, while the second is a fake Shashka with a wrong mark, because it reads 18KP which doesn't make any sense.

David · 2nd March 2016, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsendaday

So one CAN and SHOULD try to bend the blade, while trying to determine the quality of the steel, without being afraid to break it.

Remind me to keep you far away from my collection of antique blades.

Seriously though, i am afraid that the reason i collect keris is not to determine the degree of strength in the steel. I would never risk bending one of my blades. Testing new blades that come off the production line for service as you mention with Soviet Shashkas make some sense, however i would not recommend that anyone ever put antique weapons they care about though stress or cut testing.
Obviously keris and kris were not made to be as flexible as the Shashka and i don't see any purpose in putting them through such testing.

arsendaday · 2nd March 2016, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Remind me to keep you far away from my collection of antique blades.

Seriously though, i am afraid that the reason i collect keris is not to determine the degree of strength in the steel. I would never risk bending one of my blades. Testing new blades that come off the production line for service as you mention with Soviet Shashkas make some sense, however i would not recommend that anyone ever put antique weapons they care about though stress or cut testing.
Obviously keris and kris were not made to be as flexible as the Shashka and i don't see any purpose in putting them through such testing.

LOL, I promise I will not bend any more kris or keris.

I too like them for what they are, a beautiful piece of culture and tradition, artfully incorporated into a weapon. I was just wandering if that's how they should be.

VANDOO · 2nd March 2016, 11:12 PM

I WOULD THINK BENDING THE INDONESIAN OR MALAY KERIS OR ANY PARMOR BLADE TO BE ESPECIALLY RISKY DUE TO THE WAY THEY ARE MADE. I HAVE SEEN A TIP BROKEN OFF JUST FROM DROPPING A BLADE ON ITS TIP. SOME KERIS HAVE A STEEL CENTER WITH APPLIED PARMOR LAYERS ON BOTH SIDES WHICH COULD POSSIBLY SEPARATE OR BREAK.

THE TANG OR PESKI IS OFTEN NOT TEMPERED AND CAN BEND AND STAY BENT OR BREAK AS WELL.
THE MORO KRIS MAY HAVE A PATTERNED OR WATERED STEEL BLADE BUT NOT A PARMOR BLADE AND APPARENTLY IS NOT BRITTLE AS I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY BROKEN EXAMPLES EVEN OF THOSE WITH BULLET HOLES AND DEEP CUTS TO THE EDGES. THERE ARE MONO STEEL MORO KRIS AS WELL MOSTLY MADE DURING SPANISH AND AMERICAN OCCUPATION ESPECIALLY WW2 AND LATER. JUST SOME GENERAL OBSERVATIONS ON KERIS AND KRIS.

arsendaday · 3rd March 2016, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I WOULD THINK BENDING THE INDONESIAN OR MALAY KERIS OR ANY PARMOR BLADE TO BE ESPECIALLY RISKY DUE TO THE WAY THEY ARE MADE. I HAVE SEEN A TIP BROKEN OFF JUST FROM DROPPING A BLADE ON ITS TIP. SOME KERIS HAVE A STEEL CENTER WITH APPLIED PARMOR LAYERS ON BOTH SIDES WHICH COULD POSSIBLY SEPARATE OR BREAK.

THE TANG OR PESKI IS OFTEN NOT TEMPERED AND CAN BEND AND STAY BENT OR BREAK AS WELL.

Thank you! And that's exactly why I started this "bending" subject. Aside from keris' looks and religious or spiritual aspects, a keris is, first of all, a weapon. And if your weapon can bend or brake during a fight than how useful is it really. What I want to find out about these "daggers" is if they were always made this way, or at some point in the past, due to a shift from a weapon to a religious and/or traditional symbol, the blacksmiths just stopped making them battle-worthy and only concentrated on the looks. It happened to Caucasian kindjals and at some point they were even making kindjals with a beautiful and expensive handles and sheaths (from silver or ivory) and an aluminum blade. Just a wall hanger.
So my question is if anybody owns, or has seen a keris with a blade that is of high quality steel and which will be able to withstand a battle.

David · 3rd March 2016, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsendaday

So my question is if anybody owns, or has seen a keris with a blade that is of high quality steel and which will be able to withstand a battle.

I would suggest that if you really want an answer that you approach the keris crowd with this subject on the keris forum.
My quick answer is that both purely talismanic and/or status blades have been made for a very long time as well as the "battle ready" variety, but keep in mind the way in which a keris is used martially (as a stabbing weapon) does not require the same qualities to hold up in a fight as a slashing or chopping edged weapon does.

Battara · 4th March 2016, 12:03 AM

And most older pre-20 century Moro kris were battle ready as well as talismanic, and laminated. Vandoo is correct in that in much later versions the quality often dropped. Moro kris were more slashing weapons and not stabbers.

VANDOO · 4th March 2016, 12:23 AM

ON THE KERIS FORUM YOU WILL FIND LOTS OF INFORMATION ON INDONESIAN AND MALAY KERIS DAGGERS. THE MORO PHILIPPINE AND MALAY SUDANG, SWORD FORMS OF KRIS WILL BE FOUND ON THIS FORUM. THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO BOTH IN FORM, FUNCTION AS WELL AS SPIRITUAL BELIEFS.
THE KERIS DAGGERS ARE HELD BY THE BLADE WITH THE FINGERS WITH THE HANDLE CRADLED IN THE PALM. THE HANDLE IS LEFT LOOSE SO THE BLADE CAN TURN SLIGHTLY TO FIT THE HAND BETTER AND ACCOMMODATE THE THRUST. IT IS DESIGNED FOR A STRAIGHT IN AND OUT THRUST. THE PARMOR OF THE BLADE IS ROUGH NOT SMOOTH LIKE MOST DAGGER BLADES SO A RAGGED WOUND WOULD RESULT. THE TANG IS NOT DESIGNED FOR STRENGTH SO WAS NOT MADE STRONG AS A KERIS WAS HANDLED WITH FINESSE NOT BRUTE STRENGTH. IN EARLY ENCOUNTERS ABOARD SHIPS BELAYING PINS WERE SAID TO BE EFFECTIVE AGAINST THE KERIS AS A HEAVY BLOW FROM THE SIDE OFTEN BENT OR BROKE THE PESKI (TANG) OR BLADE.

Sajen · 4th March 2016, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Moro kris were more slashing weapons and not stabbers.

Arsendaday,
agree with Battara, here is a close-up picture kris from a kris of my collection which has seen serious fights, the edges have a lot of nicks as sign of this.

2nd March 2016, 02:11 AM	#1
arsendaday Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 44	Apologies Hi everyone. My apologies for being a little confused about the "Kris" & "Keris". When I was buying these daggers the descriptions on all of them had kris and keris in them, but I am learning and will be more careful next time. I really appreciate all the input and comments. As for the blade bending; I am not doing it all the way, nor did I ever ruin any blades by doing so. What I am doing is feeling it a little bit, to determine if it is a quality steel or not. As most of you know the European blades are very springy and some of them can be bent well over 45 degrees without any harm to the blade. More over in Russian factories in Zlatoust and Izhevsk that's how they determined if the blade is of good quality or not, i.e. by hanging weight from the tip of the blade and checking how much weight it would take before it would bend out of shape. BTW the markings on some of the early Soviet Shashkas meant just that: i.e. 15КГ or 17КГ meaning 15 or 17 kilograms, before the blade would not bend back to its original form completely. So one CAN and SHOULD try to bend the blade, while trying to determine the quality of the steel, without being afraid to break it. And if your shashka doesn't bend more than 30 degrees and spring back completely than it's a fake for sure. I would not really hang any weights from my blades for sure, and if the blade is too old or valuable I just leave them be, but I have a very old Caucasian Shashka that can be bend almost into a circle without any damage to the blade. And bunch of other Russian and European swords and daggers that will bend to a certain degree. As one old sayings goes "a shashka should be as elastic as a vine..." But I digress. I will probably start a new thread about the elasticity of the bladed weapons, with the moderators' permission of course, as soon as I have enough material to do so. In the meantime I will try to learn more about the Kris and Keris, because I find these weapons very fascinating. Thanks again. P.S. Here are some photos of the markings that I was talking about. The first one is a real mark of a 1927 NKVD Shaska, while the second is a fake Shashka with a wrong mark, because it reads 18KP which doesn't make any sense. Attached Images

2nd March 2016, 11:12 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD THINK BENDING THE INDONESIAN OR MALAY KERIS OR ANY PARMOR BLADE TO BE ESPECIALLY RISKY DUE TO THE WAY THEY ARE MADE. I HAVE SEEN A TIP BROKEN OFF JUST FROM DROPPING A BLADE ON ITS TIP. SOME KERIS HAVE A STEEL CENTER WITH APPLIED PARMOR LAYERS ON BOTH SIDES WHICH COULD POSSIBLY SEPARATE OR BREAK. THE TANG OR PESKI IS OFTEN NOT TEMPERED AND CAN BEND AND STAY BENT OR BREAK AS WELL. THE MORO KRIS MAY HAVE A PATTERNED OR WATERED STEEL BLADE BUT NOT A PARMOR BLADE AND APPARENTLY IS NOT BRITTLE AS I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY BROKEN EXAMPLES EVEN OF THOSE WITH BULLET HOLES AND DEEP CUTS TO THE EDGES. THERE ARE MONO STEEL MORO KRIS AS WELL MOSTLY MADE DURING SPANISH AND AMERICAN OCCUPATION ESPECIALLY WW2 AND LATER. JUST SOME GENERAL OBSERVATIONS ON KERIS AND KRIS.

4th March 2016, 12:03 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	And most older pre-20 century Moro kris were battle ready as well as talismanic, and laminated. Vandoo is correct in that in much later versions the quality often dropped. Moro kris were more slashing weapons and not stabbers.

4th March 2016, 12:23 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ON THE KERIS FORUM YOU WILL FIND LOTS OF INFORMATION ON INDONESIAN AND MALAY KERIS DAGGERS. THE MORO PHILIPPINE AND MALAY SUDANG, SWORD FORMS OF KRIS WILL BE FOUND ON THIS FORUM. THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO BOTH IN FORM, FUNCTION AS WELL AS SPIRITUAL BELIEFS. THE KERIS DAGGERS ARE HELD BY THE BLADE WITH THE FINGERS WITH THE HANDLE CRADLED IN THE PALM. THE HANDLE IS LEFT LOOSE SO THE BLADE CAN TURN SLIGHTLY TO FIT THE HAND BETTER AND ACCOMMODATE THE THRUST. IT IS DESIGNED FOR A STRAIGHT IN AND OUT THRUST. THE PARMOR OF THE BLADE IS ROUGH NOT SMOOTH LIKE MOST DAGGER BLADES SO A RAGGED WOUND WOULD RESULT. THE TANG IS NOT DESIGNED FOR STRENGTH SO WAS NOT MADE STRONG AS A KERIS WAS HANDLED WITH FINESSE NOT BRUTE STRENGTH. IN EARLY ENCOUNTERS ABOARD SHIPS BELAYING PINS WERE SAID TO BE EFFECTIVE AGAINST THE KERIS AS A HEAVY BLOW FROM THE SIDE OFTEN BENT OR BROKE THE PESKI (TANG) OR BLADE.