Plains stone axe for ?ing

[stekemest]

Tim, with my limited knowledge of plains weaponry, I do think your piece could be "old" in the sense that it was probably made about 100 years ago. Native Americans produced wallhangers, pieces for trade and use at powwows during that time. However, I don't think it was ever practically used as a weapon or tool. The lines between an "authentic" and a "tourist" piece seem to blur when it comes to Native American antiquities made during the reservation period. Weapons made before that time are very hard to find.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes I never suggested it was a battle weapon earlier in the thread.

[Tim Simmons]

I am having a problem with the term Reservation period. It starts around 1860 and is not without conflict right up to 1890's and latter. The use of the term seems to down grade Native American culture. As if all fighting stopped and Native American life was devoid of its own sophistication. This is odd as collectors. We accept the weapons, art works and cultural sophistication of say the Zulu and other South African peoples also living on restricted home lands. The artifacts of the Zulu for example do not get the same somewhat scornful treatment. Why is this? Genuine 19th century South African artifacts are very common. Weapons, ceremonial regalia all very common but not questioned is the same way. Why should genuine artifacts of the Plains Nations be not so common or at least plentiful?

[Tim Simmons]

I am making a photo comparison of these two pieces. I could argue that we accept derivations of a standard form of weapons from every culture weapons come from, so why not Native American? I am adding a lot of links about trade pigments and the use of laundry blue to paint artifacts. It is clear that some bluing pigments would have been available from the earliest trade contacts on the northern plains and latter from the mid 19th century synthetic blue and latter other synthetic pigments. I think these pictures show some differences in age and conception. One appears to me as ridged and over done. I feel the one a have shows a more free form. The brass tacks spiral around the wood haft. The whole design is more thoughtful and considered. On close inspection the the two pieces are quite different.

https://www.cac-accr.ca/files/pdf/Vol22_doc4.pdf

http://cool.conservation-us.org/byfo...1999/1328.html

http://www.womenofthefurtrade.com/wst_page18.html

http://www.oldandinteresting.com/laundry-blue.aspx

[Tim Simmons]

Just to show that not all old brass knobs have to be scummy. The museum might keep the item clean to some degree?

[Tim Simmons]

Removed from ebay.

Another flint tomahawk of questionably age. Was offered at a more reasonable price though. The wood looks painted. Again aged brass, and white stiff looking leather. Is somebody making these in a craft workshop? We know ethnographic weapons most often follow a traditional form? Neither of the two show the same quality of knapping as on the rhyolite stone.

[Ian]

Tim:

The answer to your question is very complex. I live in Minnesota, which has a long history of interactions between whites and Native Americans (mainly Lakota Sioux and Ojibwe). Old attitudes die hard but there has been much progress here over the last 50+ years. It is a long and complicated story, and not one that can be told adequately here. There have been many books written on the subject, and each part of the US has its own history of how whites came to displace Native Americans, and the legacies of those interactions that persist today.

You make a good case for collectors of the weapons from Plains tribes to consider those developed after contact with whites as being meaningful variants of more traditional weapons.

I agree that the notion of a "Reservation Period," to describe the confinement of tribes to relatively small areas, is not particularly helpful. There have been several "Reservation Periods" beginning with the initial containment of Native Americans who had been free to roam widely in their customary manner, to periods of abject poverty and starvation with erosion of their traditional cultures, to the modern Casino-fueled economies of many tribes. [The latter refers to the presence of gambling casinos that are owned by the tribe. Since each reservation is a sovereign territory, state gambling laws do not apply and casinos can be operated--hence enormous income for often a small number of local tribes people.]

Your example of the Zulu and other South African weapons being viewed differently from modern Native American examples overlooks the fact that collectors are from outside the region in which these are produced. In the U.S. we have many collectors for whom these are locally produced goods and for whom there may be a long and personal family history of contact with Native Americans. For example, I know several families who lost relatives to raids during the so-called Sioux Uprising of 1862. Even after 150 years there are still lingering feelings and prejudices in this part of the country. You might like to read online about the Dakota War of 1862 to get some of the details.

It's complicated.

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I am having a problem with the term Reservation period. It starts around 1860 and is not without conflict right up to 1890's and latter. The use of the term seems to down grade Native American culture. As if all fighting stopped and Native American life was devoid of its own sophistication. This is odd as collectors. We accept the weapons, art works and cultural sophistication of say the Zulu and other South African peoples also living on restricted home lands. The artifacts of the Zulu for example do not get the same somewhat scornful treatment. Why is this? Genuine 19th century South African artifacts are very common. Weapons, ceremonial regalia all very common but not questioned is the same way. Why should genuine artifacts of the Plains Nations be not so common or at least plentiful?

[Tim Simmons]

Just want to add this as it is fun to read.

https://www.realorrepro.com/article/...dian-Artifacts

[VANDOO]

THE STONE PARTS OF NATIVE AMERICAN ARTIFACTS ARE BY NO MEANS RARE IN NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA. WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE THOUSANDS OF YEARS AND THE UNTOLD MILLIONS OF TRIBESMEN IT IS NOT SURPRISING.
THERE ARE QUITE A FEW INTACT WAR CLUBS, SPEARS, SHIELDS, ROBES AND OTHER ARTIFACTS MOSTLY IN MUSEUMS OR PRIVATE COLLECTIONS. BUT THERE ARE MUCH LARGER NUMBERS OF THOSE WITH NO PROVENANCE THAT ARE MADE TO LOOK OLD TO SELL TO COLLECTORS OR FOR WESTERN DECOR. THIS HAS BEING GOING ON FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND IS STILL DONE TODAY. I KNOW QUITE A FEW WHO DO THIS LOCALLY AND IN TEXAS. THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF EXCELLENT FLINT NAPPERS THAT CAN REPLICATE JUST ABOUT ANYTHING AS WELL AS MANY MORE WHO CAN TURN OUT DECENT POINTS BUT NO MASTERPIECES. WE JUST HAD OUR YEARLY POINT AND FOSSIL SHOW HERE IN TULSA YESTERDAY AND THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF ARTIFACTS FOR SALE. MOST AT THIS SHOW ARE AUTHENTIC OR IF RECENT WORK SOLD AS SUCH. WE HAVE MANY EXPERTS ON HAND SO IT WOULD NOT BE EASY TO GET AWAY WITH BRINGING FAKES TO SELL. AT FLEA MARKETS AND GUN SHOWS THAT IS NOT THE CASE SO LOTS OF THIS TYPE OF ITEM CAN BE FOUND FOR SALE ALONG WITH THE OCCASIONAL REAL ITEMS. WE COULD SEPARATE THESE COMPLETELY INTACT ITEMS INTO SEVERAL CATEGORY'S.
#1. AUTHENTIC ARTIFACTS INTACT AND WITH GOOD PROVENIENCE
#2. AUTHENTIC ARTIFACTS INTACT ,DOUBTFUL OR NO PROVENIENCE
#3. AUTHENTIC STONE BLADE OR POINTS WITH A RESTORED HANDLE ALL
DONE USING THE PROPER OLD TECHNIQUES AND MATERIALS.
#4. AUTHENTIC STONE BUT MODERN TECHNIQUES AND MATERIALS USED
FOR THE RESTORATION.
#5. ITEMS MADE USING TRADITIONAL MATERIALS AND TECHNIQUES MADE
BY NATIVE AMERICANS FOR PERSONAL OR CEREMONIAL USE WITHIN THE
TRIBE IN RECENT TIMES.
#6.WELL MADE REPLICAS BY NATIVE AMERICANS IN THE PAST FOR WILD
WEST SHOWS OR FOR SALE TO THOSE WHO TRAVEL.
THESE FIRST SIX ARE GOOD COLLECTIBLES IN A ETHNOGRAPHIC SENSE WITH AT LEAST SOME ORIGINAL PARTS OR TRIBAL CONNECTIONS.
#7. POORLY MADE REPLICAS, MADE IN THE PAST BY NATIVE AMERICANS
FOR SALE IN SOUVENIR SHOPS.
#8. REPLICAS WITH ALL NEW MATERIALS SOLD PRIMARILY FOR
DECORATIONS.
#9. ITEMS MADE AND ANTIQUED TO FOOL COLLECTORS INTO THINKING
THEY ARE AUTHENTIC THESE ARE MADE BY NATIVE AMERICAN AS
WELL AS OTHERS AND ARE INTENTIONAL FRAUDS AT LEAST BY THE
MAKERS. AT TIMES THE RE SELLERS DO NOT KNOW OR PERHAPS DON'T
CARE.
ONE FELLOW I KNOW LOOKS NATIVE AMERICAN BUT IS NOT AND SPECIALIZES IN BUYING CHEAP OLD LONG GUNS, ADDING SOME RAWHIDE, PAINT BEADS AND FEATHERS AND A FEW ANTIQUES BRASS TACKS. HIS WORK LOOKS VERY GOOD AND HE HAS NO TROUBLE FINDING BUYERS WHO ARE MOSTLY DEALERS IN SUCH ITEMS. HE ALSO MAKES UP A GOOD STORY TO GO WITH EACH ITEM.
MY PERSONAL WAY OF DEALING WITH THIS IS ALL STONE POINTS ARE DOUBTFUL UNLESS I FIND THEM MYSELF OR A TRUSTED FRIEND FINDS THEM. THOSE WITH PAPERS BY AN EXPERT I KNOW PERSONALLY ARE LIKELY GOOD. EVERYTHING ELSE IS SUSPECT BUT IF I SEE SOMETHING I LIKE AT A FAIR PRICE I WILL BUY IT ANYWAY. EVEN EXPERIENCED COLLECTORS ARE NEVER PERFECT ALL THE TIME, BUT THAT IS PART OF THE ADVENTURE OF COLLECTING.

[mross]

Tim, looks like you have it bad. Welcome to the wonderful world of artifact collecting. I am on this forum occasionally, yes I am one of the collectors you mentioned in your first post. Here is a link to another forum that specializes in your new obsession.

http://www.arrowheadology.com/