Double Barrel Flintlock Holster Pistol c1740

[dana_w]

The lock and top barrel on this Double Barrel Flintlock Holster pistol is marked “Wistaller”, and the bottom barrel is marked "a Olmitz". Some maker information from a similarly marked pistol was found in Thomas Delmar's Summer 2008 catalog, but it was not attributed.

Georg Wisthaler (active 1718-50) apprenticed in Vienna and later worked for the Bishop of Olmütz, present day Oloumec, in Moravia.

Can anyone contribute some additional information on this maker?

During the same period there is a maker with a similar name, Johann Georg Wisthaler, noted in Munich which is 380 miles away from Oloumec.

Any comments are welcome.

These images are copyright (c) 2016 Dana K. Williams. All rights are reserved.

[corrado26]

The "Neue Stöckel" writes:
WISTHALER Baden near Vienna erw. 1762. His son Joseph begins his apprenticeship in Vienna

WISTHALER (WISTALER) Franz Xaver, Munic, 1800-1845 Coming from Olmütz(?), Begins his apprenticeship probably 1801 in Vienna. He signs:" Büchsenmachermeister im Königlichen Grenadier-Garde-Regiment".

WISTHALER (WISTALER), Georg, Olmütz, erw. 1718 - ca. 1750. Begins his apprenticeship 1718 at Vienna and works for the archbishop of Olmütz. Famous for his multibarrelled weapens.

WISTHALER Johann Georg is working in Munic 1745-1748

WISTHALER Josef, Baden near Vienna, 1660-80

corrado26

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

The "Neue Stöckel" writes:
WISTHALER Baden near Vienna erw. 1762. His son Joseph begins his apprenticeship in Vienna

WISTHALER (WISTALER) Franz Xaver, Munic, 1800-1845 Coming from Olmütz(?), Begins his apprenticeship probably 1801 in Vienna. He signs:" Büchsenmachermeister im Königlichen Grenadier-Garde-Regiment".

WISTHALER (WISTALER), Georg, Olmütz, erw. 1718 - ca. 1750. Begins his apprenticeship 1718 at Vienna and works for the archbishop of Olmütz. Famous for his multibarrelled weapens.

WISTHALER Johann Georg is working in Munic 1745-1748

WISTHALER Josef, Baden near Vienna, 1660-80

corrado26

Thanks so much corrado26. It seems likely I have the right "WISTHALER".

[Jim McDougall]

If I may, I just would like to thank you Dana for presenting the research you had already begun and that data as well as your thoughts to accompany your query!
It really helps a lot and its great to see teamwork in queries which includes the person placing it. You and Corrado really did this 'textbook'.
Great pistol!!!!

[fernando]

Oh, i wish i had one of these

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh, i wish i had one of these

Glad to hear that you like it Fernando.

I have another Over-Under Double Barrel Flintlock Pistol with an interesting firing mechanism. Rather than having two locks, one for each barrel, this pistol uses a single lock and two fire pans. Both fire pans would be loaded with priming powder then the top pan would be locked into place above the bottom one. After firing the top barrel shot recocking the pistol would cause the top pan to slide backward making the bottom pan and barrel available to fire.

It has no maker markings, but it may have been made in Germany. Any thoughts on this?

These images are copyright (c) 2016 Dana K. Williams. All rights are reserved.

[fernando]

My only thoughts are that this is a fascinating piece with an ingenious system ... and i like it.

[corrado26]

It would be very intersting to see the inside of the lock and the mechanism of it
corrado26

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

It would be very intersting to see the inside of the lock and the mechanism of it
corrado26

That may be a possibility corrado26.

[Fernando K]

Hi, Dana

It is possible that the two barrel are fired at a time, running top bread, and exposing both ears?

Sorry for the translator

Fernando K

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hi, Dana

It is possible that the two barrel are fired at a time, running top bread, and exposing both ears?

Sorry for the translator

Fernando K

It seems unlikely Fernando K. The top pan is not aligned with the flash hole until it is slid into place above the bottom pan. Maybe if you put enough powder in the second pan alone it could work, but I wouldn't want to try it.

[Fernando K]

Hi, Dana

I see the upper ear is in the same line as the hole in the bottom pan, so that the ignition of the powder produced bait, hot gases and some grains of powder can reach the upper ear.

Sorry for the translator, Fernando K

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hi, Dana

I see the upper ear is in the same line as the hole in the bottom pan, so that the ignition of the powder produced bait, hot gases and some grains of powder can reach the upper ear.

Sorry for the translator, Fernando K

I might indeed ignite, but I doubt if that was the intention of the design. Still it is possible Fernando K.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

It would be very intersting to see the inside of the lock and the mechanism of it
corrado26

Your wish has been granted. Sorry the photos aren't better but I didn't have much time.

These images are copyright (c) 2016 Dana K. Williams. All rights are reserved.

[corrado26]

Thanks a lot for showing the mechanical side of this very ingenious lock but I must confess I cannot see how or by what the upper pan is moved backwards by recocking the cock.
corrado26

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Thanks a lot for showing the mechanical side of this very ingenious lock but I must confess I cannot see how or by what the upper pan is moved backwards by recocking the cock.
corrado26

I video would help . Actually it is not that hard to follow, but it will take me some time to put a good explanation together. Stay tuned.

[dana_w]

I've created a short YouTube video that shows how the sliding pan works.

https://youtu.be/4Ihecrd8E00

[Fernando K]

Hi all

Dana has made a great effort to introduce the video, we know that the withdrawal of the first bread is automatically produced with the second hammer assembly, but we would have liked a description of the mechanical parts for their achievement

Sorry for the translator.

Fernando K

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hi all

Dana has made a great effort to introduce the video, we know that the withdrawal of the first bread is automatically produced with the second hammer assembly, but we would have liked a description of the mechanical parts for their achievement

Sorry for the translator.

Fernando K

I am working on that Fernando K. This was more of a test to see if I could get the lighting right. Stay tuned.

[dana_w]

I've posted a video of the two pan lock's internal operation.

http://youtu.be/2DLm2jW4EF4

[Fernando K]

Hi all

I appreciate the work that has taken Dana.

The sliding bowl has a cover-like bread wheellocki mechanism, and is governed by two springs, one vertical, which is below the bowl and the other horizontal, holding the cup in position. The hammer, in his half-cock position, can retract the mobile cup to prime the pan set and close the mobile bowl. In turn, once triggered, hooks, by a mechanism that is not visible, the mobile cup back, allowing functions to enter the fixed bowl

Never before, sorry for the translator

Fernando K

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hi all

hooks, by a mechanism that is not visible

I believe that the channel cut into the lower back of the cock plays a roll in releasing the cup which is powered by the horizontal spring at that point.

[corrado26]

This might be correct and I thank you very much for your effort to upload these videos. I have never seen such an ingenious system which is more complicated than a wheellock system.
corrado26

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by corrado26

This might be correct and I thank you very much for your effort to upload these videos. I have never seen such an ingenious system which is more complicated than a wheellock system.
corrado26

I'd like to contact you privately corrado26, but you have that option turned off.

[corrado26]

Try it again
corrado26

[Fernando K]

Hi all

Under the principle of parsimony, enunciated by Ockham, everything is easier than it seems.

Indeed, the horizontal spring plays a big function. After having fired the first time, turning backwards nut, engages the horizontal spring, bringing the bread backwards, and release it when the bread has reached its maximum position. The spring then becomes inactive, allowing the second shot.

When the sequence, to take the first pan forward, the spring does not engage with the nut, it is above, and when the hammer reaches full-cock the bread remains in place starts. Only when the nut (hammer) starts its way back, engages the spring, moving the upper bread.

Dana is so?

Never before, sorry for the translator

Fernando K

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hi all

Under the principle of parsimony, enunciated by Ockham, everything is easier than it seems.

Indeed, the horizontal spring plays a big function. After having fired the first time, turning backwards nut, engages the horizontal spring, bringing the bread backwards, and release it when the bread has reached its maximum position. The spring then becomes inactive, allowing the second shot.

When the sequence, to take the first pan forward, the spring does not engage with the nut, it is above, and when the hammer reaches full-cock the bread remains in place starts. Only when the nut (hammer) starts its way back, engages the spring, moving the upper bread.

Dana is so?

Never before, sorry for the translator

Fernando K

Hopefully the video makes it a little clearer where the one spring hands off to the other. It is just not too easy to describe.

[dana_w]

I am still seeking information on the Bishop, or Archbishop, of Olmütz (present day Oloumec) mentioned in The Neue Stöckel as being "Famous for his multi barrelled weapons" (see above).

Bishops of Olmütz
Wolfgang Schrattenbach 1711-1738
Jakub Arnošt z Lichtenštejna 1738-1745