Vasily Vereshchagin "Indian poem"

ariel · 10th February 2016, 01:33 AM

Re: shashka with agate handle.
Flindt specifically states the rivets on wooden and horn handles. Agate doesn't seem to relate here.

Gavin Nugent · 10th February 2016, 02:27 AM

Trying to work past the school yard antics here are some facts about the rivets and hilt materials.

My sabre hilt from my gallery has already been presented above, 5 large rivets.

My turquoise pichoq set with sheaths and baldric, 2 small rivets.

The named and dated pair of pichoq shown in my gallery that interlock are two small rivets.

The large Rhino hilt Karud has 3 small rivets.

Another pichoq has five small rivets which is a lot for such a small knife.

One Mahratt now has, I think 4 or 5 small rivets from memory.

I've personally seen turquoise and silver, timber, ivory, both walrus and Elephant, jade or agate, and various horn types too.

It all comes down to the makers I am sure...for timber sabre grip slabs I only recall large rivet types, for other materials smaller iron pins...such large
rivets would look very out of place on a full silver and turquoise hilt...of those I have had, it seems timber had more rivets...it might have something to do with securing the burl like timber...to be sure to be sure, or perhaps an unknown thought process behind that aspect?

Ariel, the three rivet shashka type hilt you have presented with the engraved bolster is in my opinion Afghanistan, Herat to Kabul, influenced from the Central Asian regions further north.

Gavin

ariel · 10th February 2016, 03:21 AM

Gavin,
Of course the 3-riveted handle belongs to the Afghani pseudoshashka.
I showed it only for the size of the rivets, to compare with 5 small rivets on the Bukharan examples. I thought I made it clear. If not, I am sorry. Hope it is clear now.

mahratt · 10th February 2016, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Trying to work past the school yard antics here are some facts about the rivets and hilt materials.

My sabre hilt from my gallery has already been presented above, 5 large rivets.

My turquoise pichoq set with sheaths and baldric, 2 small rivets.

The named and dated pair of pichoq shown in my gallery that interlock are two small rivets.

The large Rhino hilt Karud has 3 small rivets.

Another pichoq has five small rivets which is a lot for such a small knife.

One Mahratt now has, I think 4 or 5 small rivets from memory.

I've personally seen turquoise and silver, timber, ivory, both walrus and Elephant, jade or agate, and various horn types too.

It all comes down to the makers I am sure...for timber sabre grip slabs I only recall large rivet types, for other materials smaller iron pins...such large
rivets would look very out of place on a full silver and turquoise hilt...of those I have had, it seems timber had more rivets...it might have something to do with securing the burl like timber...to be sure to be sure, or perhaps an unknown thought process behind that aspect?

Ariel, the three rivet shashka type hilt you have presented with the engraved bolster is in my opinion Afghanistan, Herat to Kabul, influenced from the Central Asian regions further north.

Gavin

Gavin, my friend, you are saying the right thing. You and I have seen many different examples, because you and I specifically interested in Central Asia.

Battara · 10th February 2016, 03:42 PM

Gentlemen, I have redacted some of what I have seen due to the fact that THEY DO NOT BELONG HERE!

Both you, Ariel and Mahratt, been warned privately (as well as other measures). This is a good thread and I have learned from the information you folks have provided. Please keep on topic. Personal attacks and slander on ANYONE will not be tolerated here. I do not want to close this thread...........

mahratt · 10th February 2016, 07:18 PM

I want to show Bukhara shashkas from Hermitage and the Museum of artillery in St. Petersburg . Incidentally, the term "Bukhara shashka" unites the shashkas of Bukhara, Khiva and Kokand.

carlitobrigante · 10th February 2016, 08:47 PM

oh my! that 2nd sword from your post immediately above mine is one of the most gorgeous looking swords i have ever seen.

What is the scabbard made of, and in which museum does this beauty reside?

Thank you for keeping this thread civil so it can continue. Although not my area of collecting it has been fascinating seeing the paintings and some of the examples posted.

mahratt · 10th February 2016, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

oh my! that 2nd sword from your post immediately above mine is one of the most gorgeous looking swords i have ever seen.

What is the scabbard made of, and in which museum does this beauty reside?

Thank you for keeping this thread civil so it can continue. Although not my area of collecting it has been fascinating seeing the paintings and some of the examples posted.

Many thanks. I am glad that you like!
I also really like the first and second shashkas

These shashkas were presented to the Tsar of Russia. These shashkas presented Khan of Kokand.

Now they are kept in the Hermitage in Russia

Gavin Nugent · 10th February 2016, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

oh my!

What is the scabbard made of

Oh my indeed!

Having a pair of hilts in the same manner, this is what I suspect at face value.

I suspect a timber inner core with a possible "Moroccan" leather inner throat area for the blade.
The outer is dressed with a silver, almost entirely like a honey comb or reptile scale pattern, but specifically a random pattern with each hole is the final appearance. Again, I suspect as I only see the final product in hand, but small turquoise and garnet stones are resin inset in to each tiny hole, once cured, ground, polished and shaped with a wheel.
These hilt types are mostly considered as political gifts to other rulers and men of standing as only the Amir had the means for such time, expense and beauty.

Gavin

mahratt · 10th February 2016, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Re: shashka with agate handle.
Flindt specifically states the rivets on wooden and horn handles. Agate doesn't seem to relate here.

Now back to Bukhara shashka. Maybe you do not know that there Bukhara shashkas with a handle made of precious stone. Such shashka have, for example, in the collection of Henry Moser.

10th February 2016, 01:33 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Re: shashka with agate handle. Flindt specifically states the rivets on wooden and horn handles. Agate doesn't seem to relate here. Last edited by Battara; 10th February 2016 at 05:05 PM.

10th February 2016, 03:42 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,342	Gentlemen, I have redacted some of what I have seen due to the fact that THEY DO NOT BELONG HERE! Both you, Ariel and Mahratt, been warned privately (as well as other measures). This is a good thread and I have learned from the information you folks have provided. Please keep on topic. Personal attacks and slander on ANYONE will not be tolerated here. I do not want to close this thread........... Last edited by Battara; 10th February 2016 at 05:11 PM.

10th February 2016, 07:18 PM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I want to show Bukhara shashkas from Hermitage and the Museum of artillery in St. Petersburg . Incidentally, the term "Bukhara shashka" unites the shashkas of Bukhara, Khiva and Kokand. Attached Images

10th February 2016, 02:27 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Trying to work past the school yard antics here are some facts about the rivets and hilt materials. My sabre hilt from my gallery has already been presented above, 5 large rivets. My turquoise pichoq set with sheaths and baldric, 2 small rivets. The named and dated pair of pichoq shown in my gallery that interlock are two small rivets. The large Rhino hilt Karud has 3 small rivets. Another pichoq has five small rivets which is a lot for such a small knife. One Mahratt now has, I think 4 or 5 small rivets from memory. I've personally seen turquoise and silver, timber, ivory, both walrus and Elephant, jade or agate, and various horn types too. It all comes down to the makers I am sure...for timber sabre grip slabs I only recall large rivet types, for other materials smaller iron pins...such large rivets would look very out of place on a full silver and turquoise hilt...of those I have had, it seems timber had more rivets...it might have something to do with securing the burl like timber...to be sure to be sure, or perhaps an unknown thought process behind that aspect? Ariel, the three rivet shashka type hilt you have presented with the engraved bolster is in my opinion Afghanistan, Herat to Kabul, influenced from the Central Asian regions further north. Gavin

10th February 2016, 03:21 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gavin, Of course the 3-riveted handle belongs to the Afghani pseudoshashka. I showed it only for the size of the rivets, to compare with 5 small rivets on the Bukharan examples. I thought I made it clear. If not, I am sorry. Hope it is clear now.

10th February 2016, 08:47 PM	#7
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	oh my! that 2nd sword from your post immediately above mine is one of the most gorgeous looking swords i have ever seen. What is the scabbard made of, and in which museum does this beauty reside? Thank you for keeping this thread civil so it can continue. Although not my area of collecting it has been fascinating seeing the paintings and some of the examples posted.