Ottoman matchlock examples.

[archaeologist]

Does anyone have info or comment on the butt form - rounded cross section vs octagonal? When/where do we get that transition? Am I right in thinking the octagonal butts are typical of slightly later Turkish flintlocks?

[Pukka Bundook]

Good morning Archaeologist,

I believe you are right, in that the faceted butt appears to be a Turkish design. As for dates, it appears we can find Turkish stocks of this style going back a very long way, into the 17th century at any rate, and up to the 19th C.

I think the round or oval stocks are more Persian, and these too were made over a very long period, and up into the 19th C.
My understanding (very imperfect!) is that the two stock types co-existed over the same time period, in different areas.

Then of course we get into the "Spheres of influence" and as these spheres came and went, fashion in arms would change as well, and not at all helpful to us!
I stand ready to be corrected in the above, but at present that is as it appears to me. :-)

Best,
Richard.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Good morning Archaeologist,

I believe you are right, in that the faceted butt appears to be a Turkish design. As for dates, it appears we can find Turkish stocks of this style going back a very long way, into the 17th century at any rate, and up to the 19th C.

I think the round or oval stocks are more Persian, and these too were made over a very long period, and up into the 19th C.
My understanding (very imperfect!) is that the two stock types co-existed over the same time period, in different areas.

Then of course we get into the "Spheres of influence" and as these spheres came and went, fashion in arms would change as well, and not at all helpful to us!
I stand ready to be corrected in the above, but at present that is as it appears to me. :-)

Best,
Richard.

Richard, when looking for Ottoman matchlock images I found that Persian examples were even more rare, I do not remember seeing a Persian matchlock and only a few Persian flintlocks. I believe this image shows an Ottoman gun next to a Persian one.

[Pukka Bundook]

Eric,

I believe you are right in your assessment of the last photo, one Persian, and one Ottoman.
I believe that Manouchehr has photos of Persian matchlocks in his series on Persian arms, in "Classic Arms" magazine.
These pictures will undoubtedly be published again in his book, which will be appearing very soon now.

As you say, Persian matchlocks are Very thin on the ground. We keep bringing this up, in the hopes that someone can shed light on why this is the case, but we keep drawing blanks!
All I can come up with, is that they were traded off, or at least the barrels were, going into India, Afghanistan, and over in Oman when the Persian armed forces were modernised on the Western pattern.
This may be all horsefeathers, but it's all I can think of at present!

Best,
Richard.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by archaeologist

Does anyone have info or comment on the butt form - rounded cross section vs octagonal? When/where do we get that transition? Am I right in thinking the octagonal butts are typical of slightly later Turkish flintlocks?

Unfortunately images of early Ottoman guns are rare, in fact this is as far as I know the largest collection of such images ever discussed. From what I can see, the early Ottoman matchlock/flintlock butt was not nearly as flaired out as the later ones, that is just a personal thought based on the images I have seen.