When in India "died" wootz?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Science and Civilisation in China: Vol. 5, Chemistry and chemical technology ; Pt. 11, Ferrous metallurgy, Volume 5; Volume 11, by Joseph Needham, 2008.

Tell me, please, the page number, where there is a piece of text that you have shown.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Tell me, please, the page number, where there is a piece of text that you have shown.

Around p265, so how do we know exactly what captain Massalski wrote, is there a translation of his work?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Around p265, so how do we know exactly what captain Massalski wrote, is there a translation of his work?

Thank you, I found page 265 and the text you show. The author is not sure what were the borders of Persia in the middle of the 19th century, therefore, it assumes that we are talking about wootz steel smelting in Central Asia. In fact Masalsky not indicate in his article the exact location of their observations. But several times he speaks of "the Persians". I think the Russian officer and ethnographer hardly confuse Uzbek with Persian.

I do not know whether there translation into English of the article Masalsky ... I have his article in Russian. If you want, I can send it to you by e-mail.

[mahratt]

Colleagues, I have found one historical source of the mid-19th century (art Masalsky 1841), where we are talking about wootz. But it turns out that this historical source says that in the middle of the 19th century has been wootz smelted.
Surely no one knows the English historical sources 19th century on this topic ...

[ariel]

It is virtually impossible to place captain Massalsky in the vicinity of Central Asian Khanates. In the 1830s both British and Russians were totally impotent to establish a foothold there. Travelers, spies and diplomats were thrown into dungeons and publicly beheaded: remember Stoddard and Conolly. Russians were treated no better. Massalsky wouldn't stand a chance of ever bringing any information back. Only after Russian conquest of Central Asian Khanates, building a railroad for quick transportation of troops, series of brutal repressions and actual demilitarization of the area ( while keeping local Khans in a semblance of power) could anybody " come and observe". But that was after ~ 1865.

On the other hand, both nations openly competed in Iran, with military instructors hired by the Persians, diplomatic missions legally establishes, bribes given and accepted on a daily basis etc,

Once again: Peter Hopkirk's "The Great Game". Set a weekend aside, find a comfy chair, a bottle of a single malt and enjoy the ride!

[ariel]

It is hopeless to attempt establishing the exact time of "disappearance of Wootz". Skills do not die on a particular date, they just wither.

Nobody would argue with a proposition that wootz was still manufactured in India and forged into blades in the middle of the 19th century. Just it was not as intensive as in the middle of the 18th or even in the first half of the 19th. From there on, wootz went into a free fall, and for a multiplicity of reasons ( see above) by the end of the 19th century its production as well as manufacture of wootz blades came to a screeching halt. Could there have been an occasional example of a newly-made blade? Yea... But that was just a proverbial " one swallow" of no practical or historical significance.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

It is hopeless to attempt establishing the exact time of "disappearance of Wootz". Skills do not die on a particular date, they just wither.

Nobody would argue with a proposition that wootz was still manufactured in India and forged into blades in the middle of the 19th century. Just it was not as intensive as in the middle of the 18th or even in the first half of the 19th. From there on, wootz went into a free fall, and for a multiplicity of reasons ( see above) by the end of the 19th century its production as well as manufacture of wootz blades came to a screeching halt. Could there have been an occasional example of a newly-made blade? Yea... But that was just a proverbial " one swallow" of no practical or historical significance.

I agree that in your words - a lot of the correct. But it is your personal reasoning. I wonder more. I guess I'm not very well expressed his thought in previous messages. Forgive me for my bad English.

I'm curious to know:
1) Is there any historical sources (messages travelers of the 19th century, for example), who argue that in the mid-19th century, the production of wootz steel in India has stopped.
2) whether there are documents that say that in India in the 19th century, banned the production of wootz steel.

I would be grateful if you answer these my questions.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

It is virtually impossible to place captain Massalsky in the vicinity of Central Asian Khanates. In the 1830s both British and Russians were totally impotent to establish a foothold there. Travelers, spies and diplomats were thrown into dungeons and publicly beheaded: remember Stoddard and Conolly. Russians were treated no better. Massalsky wouldn't stand a chance of ever bringing any information back. Only after Russian conquest of Central Asian Khanates, building a railroad for quick transportation of troops, series of brutal repressions and actual demilitarization of the area ( while keeping local Khans in a semblance of power) could anybody " come and observe". But that was after ~ 1865.

Masalsky, judging by his article (and the constant mention of the Persians) was in Persia. But, no need to dramatize the situation in Central Asia (eg in Bukhara).

In 1820 - 1821 years, captain of the Russian army E.K.Meyendorf visited the Emirate of Bukhara . After the expedition, he wrote a book: The Journey from Orenburg to Bukhara.

In 1842, merchant and explorer Khanykov traveled to Bukhara Khanate. His book was published in 1843: "The description of the Bukhara khanate."

You know the Russian language, as I remember? Then you can easily read this book.

If anyone is yet interested, this book was created and in English: "Bokhara, its amir and its people". Translated by the baron Clement A. de Bode. London, 1851.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you, I found page 265 and the text you show. The author is not sure what were the borders of Persia in the middle of the 19th century, therefore, it assumes that we are talking about wootz steel smelting in Central Asia. In fact Masalsky not indicate in his article the exact location of their observations. But several times he speaks of "the Persians". I think the Russian officer and ethnographer hardly confuse Uzbek with Persian.

I do not know whether there translation into English of the article Masalsky ... I have his article in Russian. If you want, I can send it to you by e-mail.

P.M. sent. Is there any evidence that Masalsky was actually in Persia, I find evidence that he was in Bukhara which has a long Persian history. Another problem when discussing this subject, unless you specifically say "watered steel" you do not know exactly what someone is referring to when they say "crucible steel, wootz, bulat, damascus steel" etc, these terms can and do mean different things to different people and the terms have changed over time. We tend to think of "crucible steel" as being "watered steel" but an object can be made from crucible steel and yet not show any sign of watering.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

P.M. sent. Is there any evidence that Masalsky was actually in Persia, I find evidence that he was in Bukhara which has a long Persian history. Another problem when discussing this subject, unless you specifically say "watered steel" you do not know exactly what someone is referring to when they say "crucible steel, wootz, bulat, damascus steel" etc, these terms can and do mean different things to different people and the terms have changed over time. We tend to think of "crucible steel" as being "watered steel" but an object can be made from crucible steel and yet not show any sign of watering.

Masalsky wrote in his article is about the melting of wootz steel. Masalsky and Anosov identify wootz or Damascus. So it is about the melting of wootz steel.

I do not know how ideas emerge that Masalskoe watched Damascus steel smelting in Central Asia. It seems to me that it is certain speculations of modern writers (perhaps for the sake of their ideas).
I argue only that what writes Masalskoe. He's in his article never mentions: Central Asia, Bukhara, Bukhara residents or Uzbeks. But he constantly writes about the "Persians". It is logical to assume that Masalsky the observed process wootz steel smelting in Persia.

[mahratt]

Once again, I re-read the Lord Egerton. He writes about how to produce wootz in India. And I have not found any information on the termination of wootz steel smelting. Maybe I just missed something? Correct me please.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Once again, I re-read the Lord Egerton. He writes about how to produce wootz in India. And I have not found any information on the termination of wootz steel smelting. Maybe I just missed something? Correct me please.

Asking the Earth: Farms, Forestry and Survival in India, Winin Pereira, Jeremy Seabrook Routledge, Nov 5, 2013. P21.