18th Century Naval Sword Russian Polish? with anchors ? ID help

CutlassCollector · 24th January 2016, 07:37 PM

I thought I would bump this up as I am fairly sure this is another French Cutlass blade which found a new life.
It goes well with the barnyard saber find in the more recent thread.
CC

ulfberth · 24th January 2016, 10:05 PM

Hello,

the hilt is or is the same as a French infantry off sword of the Imperial Guards
as far as I know they did no use this in the French Navy.
The two holes in the langet is were the silver Napoleon head used to be.
The blade is as CC said the blade of a French troopers sabre d'abordage model 1811.

kind regards

Ulfbert

M ELEY · 25th January 2016, 12:23 AM

Hello CC. Didn't see this until now. Not much to add but conjecture. Both the cavalry style hilt and naval blade were contemporaries from the same period. They appear to likewise be a contemporary melding, not done many years later. Both have a nice, even patina and are fitted well, not some slipshod blacksmith job. I would propose that this assembly might have been made from spare parts as a private purchase piece for a merchantman or privateer. Yes, I know somewhere, there is a sigh of 'not this pirate stuff again from him!', but it does make sense Private purchase were always cast-offs, one-offs or older models reissued for later use. They were used in times of war (this piece nicely fitting into the Napoleonic period) and made at the cheapest cost. The look of this one would have been very appealing to an officer, but it could just as easily been one of a small batch. Common sense tells us an infantryman would never want an anchor on his sword blade, whereas private navies, who had no specific dress code, wouldn't mind the brass hilt and fine (by their standards) styling. I guess I just see maritime in everything!

Mark

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2016, 01:49 AM

Mark, you should never discount your observations which reflect astutely thinking 'outside the box' in the often vaguely understood topic of maritime esoterica.
Remember some years ago, and our brass hilt Wooley & Deakin sabres with the fluted ebony grips (1800-1803). While these were often identified as British cavalry swords in the 1970s, examples of these were by Durs Egg who notably produced for the navy.

"...cavalry swords have exercised considerable influence over naval weapons in many countries and neither Britain nor America has been an exception. The stirrup hilt popular in British naval circles from the late 1790s was taken from a cavalry original, together with the slightly curved blade with its single broad fuller. The development took place in the last quarter of the 18th c. and it is interesting to note that a similar development took place in France at about the same time. As a result some American naval officers wore swords which were derived from both British and French cavalry patterns".
"Naval Swords", P.G.W. Annis, 1970 p.13

As noted by CC, the Russians copied French patterns often profoundly.

While this hilt as Ulfberth points out is pretty much the French infantry pattern, that blade certainly appears of cutlass form and heavier than the pandour point infantry versions. ....the anchor itself not withstanding.

ulfberth · 25th January 2016, 08:37 AM

The hilt sure looks French because of the holes in the langets were the Napoleon head was when used by the infantry officer.
Looking at the top of the guard were the tang was hammered, when these two became partners, it look this has been done a few hundred years ago.
I agree this is not a freshly composite sword for economical reasons, but from the looks of it this has been done in the early 19th century, of course this is hard to prove.
Now pure speculation + sound reasoning:
I someone wanted to make a composite with this guard it would be better to use a model 1821 infantry saber blade, there are more easy available and it looks a lot like the 1ste Empire infantry blade and the resale value would probably be better, lets not forget that most if not all composites fakes etc are made purely for financial reasons.
So, yes this could very well be a re use of spare parts at hand, however I don't think the sailor would have looked at the anchor first ( collectors might ) the fast broad blade and the balance would be the priority ( I would think )

kind regards
Ulfberth

kronckew · 25th January 2016, 09:22 AM

historical note:

hundreds of thousands of french and allied soldiers (and sailors) marched into russia and didn't come back. they would have left behind their weapons which likely have been scavenged or captured by the nearby locals or their armies.

after trafalgar, napoleon used a lot of sailors as artillerymen, and pioneers as they had essentially no ships they could be useful on.

napoleon was especially fond of his imperial marines who were part of his old guard and were used mostly as artillery crew ashore. he had a few survivors at waterloo. they used a much more curved clip point & yelmaned hanger with a very curved grip, a prominent anchor on the languet and two anchors either side pointing away from a cartouche enclosing the 'garde imperial' moniker, tho officers could carry their personal weapons. anyway, theswordcollector's one is not a marine's one.

ulfberth · 25th January 2016, 10:25 AM

This is the navel troopers sword used during the Napoleonic wars and after,
the sword you are showing is a reproduction of a sabre de Marine De La Garde Imperiale, also used after 1815.
So both were in use during the Napoleonic wars , as was the infantry model for it Guard a pied.

Kind regards
Ulfberth

24th January 2016, 07:37 PM	#1
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	Another French cutlass blade I thought I would bump this up as I am fairly sure this is another French Cutlass blade which found a new life. It goes well with the barnyard saber find in the more recent thread. CC

24th January 2016, 10:05 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Hello, the hilt is or is the same as a French infantry off sword of the Imperial Guards as far as I know they did no use this in the French Navy. The two holes in the langet is were the silver Napoleon head used to be. The blade is as CC said the blade of a French troopers sabre d'abordage model 1811. kind regards Ulfbert Attached Images

25th January 2016, 09:22 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	historical note: hundreds of thousands of french and allied soldiers (and sailors) marched into russia and didn't come back. they would have left behind their weapons which likely have been scavenged or captured by the nearby locals or their armies. after trafalgar, napoleon used a lot of sailors as artillerymen, and pioneers as they had essentially no ships they could be useful on. napoleon was especially fond of his imperial marines who were part of his old guard and were used mostly as artillery crew ashore. he had a few survivors at waterloo. they used a much more curved clip point & yelmaned hanger with a very curved grip, a prominent anchor on the languet and two anchors either side pointing away from a cartouche enclosing the 'garde imperial' moniker, tho officers could carry their personal weapons. anyway, theswordcollector's one is not a marine's one. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 25th January 2016 at 09:37 AM.

25th January 2016, 10:25 AM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	This is the navel troopers sword used during the Napoleonic wars and after, the sword you are showing is a reproduction of a sabre de Marine De La Garde Imperiale, also used after 1815. So both were in use during the Napoleonic wars , as was the infantry model for it Guard a pied. Kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

25th January 2016, 12:23 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello CC. Didn't see this until now. Not much to add but conjecture. Both the cavalry style hilt and naval blade were contemporaries from the same period. They appear to likewise be a contemporary melding, not done many years later. Both have a nice, even patina and are fitted well, not some slipshod blacksmith job. I would propose that this assembly might have been made from spare parts as a private purchase piece for a merchantman or privateer. Yes, I know somewhere, there is a sigh of 'not this pirate stuff again from him!', but it does make sense Private purchase were always cast-offs, one-offs or older models reissued for later use. They were used in times of war (this piece nicely fitting into the Napoleonic period) and made at the cheapest cost. The look of this one would have been very appealing to an officer, but it could just as easily been one of a small batch. Common sense tells us an infantryman would never want an anchor on his sword blade, whereas private navies, who had no specific dress code, wouldn't mind the brass hilt and fine (by their standards) styling. I guess I just see maritime in everything! Mark

25th January 2016, 01:49 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Mark, you should never discount your observations which reflect astutely thinking 'outside the box' in the often vaguely understood topic of maritime esoterica. Remember some years ago, and our brass hilt Wooley & Deakin sabres with the fluted ebony grips (1800-1803). While these were often identified as British cavalry swords in the 1970s, examples of these were by Durs Egg who notably produced for the navy. "...cavalry swords have exercised considerable influence over naval weapons in many countries and neither Britain nor America has been an exception. The stirrup hilt popular in British naval circles from the late 1790s was taken from a cavalry original, together with the slightly curved blade with its single broad fuller. The development took place in the last quarter of the 18th c. and it is interesting to note that a similar development took place in France at about the same time. As a result some American naval officers wore swords which were derived from both British and French cavalry patterns". "Naval Swords", P.G.W. Annis, 1970 p.13 As noted by CC, the Russians copied French patterns often profoundly. While this hilt as Ulfberth points out is pretty much the French infantry pattern, that blade certainly appears of cutlass form and heavier than the pandour point infantry versions. ....the anchor itself not withstanding.

25th January 2016, 08:37 AM	#5
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	The hilt sure looks French because of the holes in the langets were the Napoleon head was when used by the infantry officer. Looking at the top of the guard were the tang was hammered, when these two became partners, it look this has been done a few hundred years ago. I agree this is not a freshly composite sword for economical reasons, but from the looks of it this has been done in the early 19th century, of course this is hard to prove. Now pure speculation + sound reasoning: I someone wanted to make a composite with this guard it would be better to use a model 1821 infantry saber blade, there are more easy available and it looks a lot like the 1ste Empire infantry blade and the resale value would probably be better, lets not forget that most if not all composites fakes etc are made purely for financial reasons. So, yes this could very well be a re use of spare parts at hand, however I don't think the sailor would have looked at the anchor first ( collectors might ) the fast broad blade and the balance would be the priority ( I would think ) kind regards Ulfberth