The exhibition oriental weapons "The Mortal Beauty" of private collections in Russia,

[mahratt]

Photo:

[ariel]

Just for the fun of it: what kind of Royal Swords were likely to be seen in the Lahore collection, and how would they compare to the Saltykov's bazaar ( Hermitage) acquisitions ?

Well, on P.50, Ms. Karlova cites Saltykov letter to his brother in Russia. Saltykov bought 2 metal shields, one straight-bladed sword and two daggers for a total of 750 rupees ( ~ 120 GBP, ~$21, ~15 GBP at that time. Different sources give different numbers, likely due to geographical differences, but at the most a cost of very modest middle-class living in rural England at that time). Those went to the Hermitage.

And here is a real Royal Sword, likely comparable to some examples in Lahore. A gift from Maharaja of Jaipur to Edward VII in 1902 ( about 30 years after Saltykov's trip to India). Solid gold and 2,000 carats of diamonds.

And Saltykov himself said that the Lahore weapons were " ... extremely rich...".

Yup, Saltykov was a cheapie and a "sour grapes" man :-)))

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Just for the fun of it: what kind of Royal Swords were likely to be seen in the Lahore collection, and how would they compare to the Saltykov's bazaar ( Hermitage) acquisitions ?

Well, on P.50, Ms. Karlova cites Saltykov letter to his brother in Russia. Saltykov bought 2 metal shields, one straight-bladed sword and two daggers for a total of 750 rupees ( ~ 120 GBP, ~$21, ~15 GBP at that time. Different sources give different numbers, likely due to geographical differences, but at the most a cost of very modest middle-class living in rural England at that time). Those went to the Hermitage.

And here is a real Royal Sword, likely comparable to some examples in Lahore. A gift from Maharaja of Jaipur to Edward VII in 1902 ( about 30 years after Saltykov's trip to India). Solid gold and 2,000 carats of diamonds.

And Saltykov himself said that the Lahore weapons were " ... extremely rich...".

Yup, Saltykov was a cheapie and a "sour grapes" man :-)))

I told only about the exhibition and the catalog only. Just my opinion. I do not understand what makes you so angrily that you attack me constantly. And it is very strange to talk so unkind about man who lived 200 years ago, he can not hear you. It is madness. If you continue I afraid moderators will warn you.

Saltykov was in India half a century earlier before the Maharaja of Jaipur gave Edward VII expensive wonderful very rich sword and probably specially made for this event. Saltykov bought samples of traditional Indian weapons (this is easily seen by looking pictures of the Hermitage). The fact that you have shown - this item is perfect, but I think no one will say that this is a traditional Indian sword. Saltykov interested authentic Indian weapons. Prince Edward VII seems feel love great jewelry gems. And you inconsiderate. Prince Saltykov told about European weapons.

[David]

Originally Posted by mahratt

I told only about the exhibition and the catalog only. Just my opinion. I do not understand what makes you so angrily that you attack me constantly. And it is very strange to talk so unkind about man who lived 200 years ago, he can not hear you. It is madness. If you continue I afraid moderators will warn you.

You guys (and i do mean BOTH of you) are getting extremely tiresome. When the hammer falls it will undoubtable fall on ALL the bickering parties who seem to find it impossible not to drag their personal issues and past petty squabbles into this forum, much to the displeasure of all the rest of us. Give it a break guys. Otherwise i am pretty sure a reckoning time is coming ALL involved.

[ariel]

David,
I am not waging personal wars here; I am just trying to correct objective inaccuracies in the review that pertain to the historical assessment of Indian military tradition.
My arguments are not directed at the author of the review, but at the factual content of posted comments and I closely adhere to the Forum rules.

Jim McDougall expressed his full satisfaction by the content and educational value of the exchange.

As you can see, at least somebody is interested and is reading it:-)

That is what this Forum is all about.

I fail to see any transgression of the rules on my part.
With best wishes,
Ariel

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mahratt

I told only about the exhibition and the catalog only. Just my opinion. I do not understand what makes you so angrily that you attack me constantly. And it is very strange to talk so unkind about man who lived 200 years ago, he can not hear you. It is madness. If you continue I afraid moderators will warn you.

Under no circumstance do I attack you personally, and there is no anger on my part. There was not, and there will not be any personal insult or sarcasm. I just find inaccuracies and misinterpretations in your presentation of your arguments and try to correct them using direct references and objective facts. If you re-read my comments carefully, you will not find any attack or unkind word about you as a person.

Arguing about the facts is another ball of wax.

The whole idea of the Forum is to exchange objective information ( interspersed, of course, with personal but objective interpretation of the content).

As to prince Saltykov, my opinion about him plummeted down after his badmouthing his host who invited him into his house. Kind of " The food was terrible, and the portions were too small". This is not something I find acceptable.
The fact that he is dead plays no role: all historical personalities are dead by now. This had never prevented historians to express their opinions about them. Alexander the Great? Caligula? Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Sometime ago I have read withering critique of Mother Theresa, of all people.

[Battara]

I agree with David, especially posts after Jim's feedback.

You are skating on thin ice, especially if I am getting involved!

Please be very careful........

[Jim McDougall]

Please understand guys, I noted I AM very pleased with the informational aspects of your comments........WITHOUT any personal remarks .
You can express points of view and your own agreement or contrary perspective without personal comments.
The personal jabs are not clever, simply demeaning to the issuer.
In that, I agree that these are very tedious.

Regardless of rules, there are simple matters concerning courtesy and gracious interaction which have more to do with common sense, which should be quite familiar to everyone here.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

As to prince Saltykov, my opinion about him plummeted down after his badmouthing his host who invited him into his house. Kind of " The food was terrible, and the portions were too small". This is not something I find acceptable.
The fact that he is dead plays no role: all historical personalities are dead by now. This had never prevented historians to express their opinions about them. Alexander the Great? Caligula? Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Sometime ago I have read withering critique of Mother Theresa, of all people.

I do not understand what this has to study the weapons? But, since you're talking about it, let's find out the situation.

Prince Saltykov, as I understand it, did not say something about what you say to the owner in person. So Saltykov did not offend his host. If you specify more accurately describes that Prince Saltykov, perhaps all will be easier to draw conclusions. I do not remember this quote, so ask your clarification.
It seems strange to compare politicians and philanthropists. But that's just my opinion ...

[mahratt]

Photo:

[ariel]

"Prince Saltykov, as I understand it, did not say something about what you say to the owner in person. So Saltykov did not offend his host."

Yes, that is exactly what I meant: he did it behind his back. And this is exactly what I do not like.

But enough about that: we obviously have different criteria of " proper behavior", and since Prince S. is dead, we cannot change anything:-)

However, I have a different angle on the same story, addressing not ethical but very practical issues that may be of greater interest to the Forumites.

I am not at home now, rather far away from my library. In the evening I shall try to concoct another missive, less controversial but more interesting this time:-) OK?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

The whole idea of the Forum is to exchange objective information ( interspersed, of course, with personal but objective interpretation of the content).

As to prince Saltykov, my opinion about him plummeted down after his badmouthing his host who invited him into his house. Kind of " The food was terrible, and the portions were too small". This is not something I find acceptable.

Ariel, I agree with you as far as exchanging information etc. Sometimes peoples opinions are completely different, in this case it is good to discuss the various sources/references that have formed these opinions. As long as it is an intelligent inquiry and not a personal attack this is an important feature of any forum, the ability to question someones sources, references and personal opinions.

On the matter of Prince Aleksei Dmitrievich Saltykov, I was under the impression that he was writing letters to his brother that were later published into what we are now reading (Lettres sur l'Inde, Author: Soltykoff, Prince Alexis, 1848). Was he actually "bad mouthing" his host or were his original letters just a clear picture of his observations that were not meant for publication. Maybe when published he should have edited what he wrote and removed any offensive remarks, it is hard to second guess now. The various versions of this book do contain some very good images that were supposedly made from his drawing.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The various versions of this book do contain some very good images that were supposedly made from his drawing.

Yes, Saltykov made a lot of watercolors and pencil drawings while traveling in India. If you are wondering tonight when I'm at home, I can show you some of them.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Yes, Saltykov made a lot of watercolors and pencil drawings while traveling in India. If you are wondering tonight when I'm at home, I can show you some of them.

If you have images of the painting/drawings that would be great.