Kris question to the knowledgeables - Page 5

nechesh · 17th January 2006, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

Mabagani, thank you for this very interesting website. It is worth viewing just for the wonderful illustration at the bottom of the page. One thing i noticed as i look through each illustration that was driven home every time i came to a grouping of keris was just how unique the form of the keris is. It is unlike ANY of the displayed Indian weapon forms. It is interesting, however to see a feature that IS similar to the keris sogokan on these Indian spearheads, but the asymetric blade and seperate gonjo are features i have seen no where else.

Ian · 17th January 2006, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

Thanks for the link. This collection of material has had several incarnations over the last six years or so. It has popped up with at least three or four different URLs to my knowledge, tending to disappear each time after a few months. So catch it while you can -- a lot of scans, many from Egerton, Stone, and other well known sources.

Ian.

MABAGANI · 17th January 2006, 06:35 AM

I stumbled across the site searching for early Indian edged weaponry, interesting how the author writes about the influence and continuity of arms and armour through the ages by trade and cultural exchange. Anyone know of sites that show the other weaponry besides keris in the bas reliefs from Southeast Asian ruins? I'd like to compare later forms of blades that may have evolved from ancient periods as the of forging process advanced or changed over time.
http://www.borobudur.tv/temple_index.htm
http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/...bananindex.htm

Pusaka · 17th January 2006, 08:23 PM

In the Rig Veda Indras thunderbolt weapon is described. It has a notched surface. It is firmly held in Indras hands. It is sthavira (stable) and Dgarnssi (durable). It is a fatal weapon made of a metal called Ayas.
In relation the quote below taken from:

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ma...k_projects.htm

• Rigveda mentions ayas about 10 times – e.g. Indra's horse had the same color as asay. (Assumed to be iron; but Tripathi disagrees because there is also Krishna-ayas, etc in texts.) Also, was iron found in neighboring countries, hence assumed to be from there.
• Refuting the above, Tripathi finds that iron in India is much earlier. Baluchistan cemeteries have iron objects. Some earlier iron in western Asia was meteorite material sculptured as rock/stone carvings, and with no metallurgical processing at all.

If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting.
Such daggers would have been manufactured for ritual use and it’s probable that they were quite rare. I don’t think that they would have been used for fighting or put on display every day but where probably only used special rituals.
Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka.
Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect.
I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated.
Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

Rick · 17th January 2006, 10:43 PM

Indra is a deity ; how can we make assumptions about the composition of what a deity holds ?

A 'Pusaka' is a cherished heirloom passed on from generation to generation within a family be they rich or poor .
A Pusaka is not necessarily a keris it is a descriptive term ; it can be many other objects .

Pusaka · 17th January 2006, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Indra is a deity ; how can we make assumptions about the composition of what a deity holds ?

A 'Pusaka' is a cherished heirloom passed on from generation to generation within a family be they rich or poor .
A Pusaka is not necessarily a keris it is a descriptive term ; it can be many other objects .

Rick, the Rig Veda tells us that the weapon is made from Ayas, its not an assumption. If indeed Ayas is meteorite iron then we are talking about a blade made from meteorite iron.

About the pusaka keris, I was simply trying to make the point that there is a difference between a keris you wear everyday and a keris pusaka.

Rick · 18th January 2006, 12:12 AM

The bible tells us that Jonah was swallowed by a whale and Jesus walked on water .
Am I to take this literally ?
I need a little more concrete evidence myself .
Also we are now back to the meteorite iron thing .
Now I won't contest that the keris is descended from Hindu weaponry ; it makes logical sense .
For the rest I personally need more than religious allegory .

As for the pusaka keris ; it does not necessarily have magic power ; rather it may just be an important family heirloom .

MABAGANI · 18th January 2006, 02:37 AM

re: Deities in Hinduism and Buddhism, "swords represent cutting ignorance but to someone unfamiliar with the symbolism, it could represent some sort of violence. A sword is a symbol of enlightenment used to destroy ignorance which is the enemy of liberation from the bonds of wordly attachments." In regards to Indra and his thunderbolts, aren't they a metaphor for a meteoric weapon coming from the heavens as opposed to an actual weapon which no mortal could possess? unless they had reached the same spiritual realm, of course?

Kiai Carita · 18th January 2006, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Is it possible that the Indonesian dha is derived from Sanskrit?

Why does Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo trace his linage back to the Indian Majapahit Empire? Does this not alone suggest that India played an important role in the history of keris?

Hi there Pusaka,

The Majapahit Empire was Jawanese not Indian and although it was influenced by India and Hinduism it also took influence from Buddhism and China. Islamic settlements were also present in the Majapahit capital. Long before Majapahit the kings in Jawa had declared that Syiwa and Buddha are the same and they created a new syncretic religion based on this idea.

Cheers,
KC

MABAGANI · 18th January 2006, 12:17 PM

If one takes the Indra stories literally, the train of thought goes that they may have been extraterrestrial beings or from past lost civilizations before the great flood. That's pre present day human history as we know it, so how would that fit into the possible OM theory and Majapahit to modern keris timeline?

nechesh · 18th January 2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka.
Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect.
I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated.
Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

Pusaka, one of the authors i recommended to you in my last PM, Margaret Wiemer, wrote an excellent book called "Visible and Invisible Realms" which is essential reading for the understanding of keris pusaka. Indian influences not withstanding, i believe that you might find that the idea of pusaka is a more indigenious one to the Indonesian area. Also you will find that a great many powerful pusaka are completely unadorned and simple looking blades.

BSMStar · 18th January 2006, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting.

Pusaka, I would be careful at jumping to conclusions, just because meteoritic iron contains nickel, that nickel content alone will "retard" rusting.

Pictures of a Kansas Pallasite (see thread Meteor in the Raw) have shown up from time to time... the small sample I have in my collection has completely rusted away since purchasing it. I also have a sizable chunk of Canyon Diablo (Meteor Crater), an Iron (coarse octahedrite), it actually contains a mineral that will accelerate rusting of the iron when expose to the atmosphere. It is not a pretty thing. Meteorites are not "stainless steel" just because they contain nickel and the iron component will readily rust (if unprotected), even when forged into a blade.

Ataxites contain the highest nickel content (around 16% nickel), I would like to see one that does not rust like any other iron meteorite.
Octahedrites (about 7 to 10% nickel)
Hexahedrites (about 4 to 7% nickel)

Just talk with anyone that trys to protect their meteorite imvestment. It is a challenge.

Federico · 19th January 2006, 01:56 AM

Oh my, this thread has sure branched from the meaning of (to borrow a keris term) the Rhon Dha on a Moro kris (not keris) to the Indian influences and as is asserted by one forumite, Indian origin of the keris. Ok, so Im jumping back to talking about PI, so mainly kris.

At least for me, I am still partial to the idea that the keris (which later evolves into the kris) came to PI along with Islam (not necessarily the full blown conversion of native populations but rather the early probings of muslim missionaries and traders I feel would be sufficient to bring its presence into the consciousness of Filipinos). Now, while I know it is often asserted that the Javanese empires extended into PI, thus bringing a pre-islamic keris culture into the islands, in other texts Ive read (Im forgetting the names right now) Javanese influence fell short of the totality of PI (eg. some influence on the Southern islands but little to no presence in the North such as Luzon). Does anyone have a good, contemporary book or link that can illustrate the Javanese empires encompassing the Philippines? I know I was surprised when in a class, the text we were using (I believe published in 2004) cut the Javanese reach off before it hit PI. I know that there have been movements in PI Universities to de-emphasize regional influences on early PI history for political reasons, and so dont know if this occurence was a product of politics or is the most current research (while we are limited in researching weapons, at least in academia there is strong emphasis on staying with current research). So any points in the direction of a book that can illustrate the presence of the Javanese empire in PI would be appreciated.

Ok, now since I was talking about why I still am fond of the notion of the keris travelling into PI with Islam, I jumped off that topic, so Ill go back. How far into PI can we really find examples of keris or keris like objects? In Scott's book Barangay, he talks about Visayan and Southern Philippine weaponry, and notes that keris like weapons are found in both, but that the keris are better made in the South. I dont remember for sure if he mentions any presence in the North, but I seem to think that he did not (ok Im being lazy Im tired and dont feel like re-hitting the books at this moment before I get this thought out). So my question is, where can we find keris like weapons (either in text but pics would be awesome) in PI (eg. just the south and central PI or more widespread), and from what time period (I know there are Luzon kris made for the Katipunan but then the Katipunan dredged alot of their history/practices from all over which would not be applicable in a pre-Spanish PI)? At least to me, Scotts descriptions could still be in fitting with a Islamic introduction, as (depending on who you read) there is some merit to the fact that at least on Spanish arrival there were the beginnings of some Islamic inroads into Visayan regions. It would be interesting to compare where the kris form is found, and if there were ever Islamic colonies/missionaries/traders in that region at that time. Oh well...as usual Ive probably made no sense, I really gotta learn to check the forums when I am not super tired.

ps.

I am only talking about PI, and not the origins of keris in general.

LabanTayo · 19th January 2006, 04:54 AM

Malay inluence in Pamapanga (Province north of Manila).

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~camiling/malay.html

Especially look at the comparison of the word Sundang and Kampilan.

A part of my family is Kapampangan and I remember them saying they are decendants of Malays.

Kapampangan word for sword = Palang

In the PI, L and R are interchangable.

Palang = Parang

Although you say Javanese culture didnt spread that far north, at least Malay culture did, and they had keris too.
I know theres more to research on my end, but thats all for now.

I just found this:

"The ancestors of the Kampampangans came from the Madjapahit Empire at the Malang Region in Central Java. They came with the second wave of Malayan migration - the last of the three prehistoric migrations that took place in the Philippines between 300 to 200 B.C.. These immigrants, led by the Prince Balagtas, settled along the costal areas of Luzon. These areas became the nucleus of the so-called Pampanga Empire, established and consolidated from 1335 to 1400 by Prince Balagtas, the first Pampango sovereign. This empire included all areas in Luzon from Manila up to Cagayan in the north. The coming of the Spaniards led to the eventual disintegration and diminution (decrease) of his empire. "

http://www.geocities.com/pilipinoinj...ilippines.html

Federico · 19th January 2006, 07:41 AM

Thanks for the links. Small world, a good portion of my family on my mother's side is Kapampangan as well. I guess I should be surprised, there are alot of Kapampangans as well.

I noticed the links are still siding with the older wave theory of settlement in PI (eg. native groups first displaced by Indonesians pushing the natives deeper into the interior and then finally displaced by Malays) vs the land bridge theory UP has been pushing in recent years (native groups originally came across a land bridge during the ice age, and it was these peoples who influenced by regional cultures). I gotta admit Ive always preferred the wave theory, as at least to me it explained the commonalities between so many PI dialects and Malay dialects. I know that linguists only attribute so much similarity to regional cultural diffusion when comparing common root words, but since Im not a trained linguist Im not sure how the conventions work for establishing commonality between groups (Ruel you out there). Anyways, its also amazing though how much education, even in early US occupied PI influenced many filipinos to their views of ancestry. I know my Lolo used to joke he was from Sumatra (he was a big history buff). Oh well, I know that the standard in academia is to prefer the most current work on a subject, but I dunno how I feel about the peer review that has been done on the issue of the land bridge, if politics hasnt taken precedence over academic stringency. Anyways, I did not say that there was no influence in Northern PI, but rather it was limited (not present in all areas such as deep mountains), I know others have theorized about the influence of Islamic settlements on Kapampangan culture. Being a devils advocate, I wonder how much of that influence could explain spill over. I suppose I may be drawing fine lines, between influence (eg. from the periphery in the form of traders and limited colonies) vs full blown inclusion in regional Empires. Oh well, just thinking out loud, so to speak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

Malay inluence in Pamapanga (Province north of Manila).

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~camiling/malay.html

Especially look at the comparison of the word Sundang and Kampilan.

A part of my family is Kapampangan and I remember them saying they are decendants of Malays.

Kapampangan word for sword = Palang

In the PI, L and R are interchangable.

Palang = Parang

Although you say Javanese culture didnt spread that far north, at least Malay culture did, and they had keris too.
I know theres more to research on my end, but thats all for now.

I just found this:

"The ancestors of the Kampampangans came from the Madjapahit Empire at the Malang Region in Central Java. They came with the second wave of Malayan migration - the last of the three prehistoric migrations that took place in the Philippines between 300 to 200 B.C.. These immigrants, led by the Prince Balagtas, settled along the costal areas of Luzon. These areas became the nucleus of the so-called Pampanga Empire, established and consolidated from 1335 to 1400 by Prince Balagtas, the first Pampango sovereign. This empire included all areas in Luzon from Manila up to Cagayan in the north. The coming of the Spaniards led to the eventual disintegration and diminution (decrease) of his empire. "

http://www.geocities.com/pilipinoinj...ilippines.html

MABAGANI · 19th January 2006, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

So any points in the direction of a book that can illustrate the presence of the Javanese empire in PI would be appreciated.

A good read is the book by Patanne, E. P., "The Philippines in the World of Southeast Asia: A Cultural History". The more recent discovery and study of the "Laguna copper plate" dated 900AD tends to support connection to Java and cause a reexamination of theories regarding trade and influence, imho, I'd find it difficult to expect the Philippines to be kept in a vacuum not having the keris until Muslim traders arrive, while other cultural pre Islamic exchanges occur in the form of literature, language, artifacts, and religion, etc. The Philippines is unique in that its positioned in the sea trade route between China and Java or in a larger view, Southeast Asia.

LabanTayo · 19th January 2006, 05:13 PM

Federico,
With Clark AF Base in Angeles, alot of Kapampangans were brought over through marriage. My mothers family is from Quezon City, but some moved to Arayat back in the 60's and married Kapampangans. Its funny that the whole family speaks a mix of Tagalog (Grandmother), Illokano (Grandfather) and Kapampangan (some Aunts and Uncles). There are some words I thought were Tagalog and found out they were Kapampangan and vice versa. No wonder I always got funny looks in Manila when I would speak to people.

Rick · 19th January 2006, 06:38 PM

About :
http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm

LabanTayo · 19th January 2006, 09:10 PM

In William Scott's book, Barangay, he mentions that Lubao and another city in Pampanga, were Moro forts when the Spanish arrived. Another piece stating an Islamic/Malay presence north of the Visayas.

BSMStar · 19th January 2006, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

About :
http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm

A great link Rick!!!! And a great discovery!!!!

Just when someone claims to see the edge of darkness, someone fines another candle!

Federico · 19th January 2006, 10:55 PM

Thanks for the book recommendation Mabagani, will get a copy asap. Also, thanks for the link Rick, great stuff. It will be interesting to see how this will change academic thought on the subject. I know Ive been very uncomfortable with the whole land bridge theory, for much of the same reasons as Mabagani. I know it is politically appealing, PI as having its own unique cultural origins non-dependent/influenced by foreign groups, but then the current PI map as a whole is such an artificial creation.

Labantayo, I think we are on the same line on Malay presence in Luzon. Scott speaks of early settlements in the area, I believe Majul speaks on their Islamic origins and connections to other regional Sultanates. Now where I think we are having some mis-understanding is that earlier, when I was speaking of Javanese imperical inclusion, I was refering to PI's inclusion as part of the Javanese Majahapit empire. I do not feel that a few settlements, that at least some scholars have hinted at having possible Islamic origins (which would postdate the Majahapit Empire), necessarily proves that we were part of the Majahapit empire. Particularly since they are limited, eg. they do not cover all of Luzon, and are more localized to certain areas, I dont necessarily feel that a later Islamic colonial explanation for their occurence (particularly by the 16th century, the time in which Scott is referring) is unreasonable. If we were part of the Majahapit empire, I would imagine that a couple hundred years of inclusion would spread the influence further into the island. Though I suppose if we used the end date of the empire, then we could argue for an explanation of limited presence, but then I feel we come in conflict with the possible Islamic influences on these settlements. Oh well, anyways I just want to clarify once more, I never said there was no Malay influence on Luzon, but was rather questioning whether that influence constituted our inclusion in the Majahapit empire. Hmm...that was rather long winded and convoluted, oh well I suppose whats new from me.

MABAGANI · 21st January 2006, 08:32 AM

A must read provided by Brian, B.I., "Malaysian Weapons in Arabic Literature" by S.Q.Fatima. It goes into the history of trade and swords in Southeast Asia from the bronze age to pre Islamic Arabia era and on until Christian contact. Ironically, the author's opinion mentions the Keris Suluk of Sulu as the blade closest in form to early bas-reliefs found in Java. Also mentions "main silat and bersilat" in relation to swordplay.

17th January 2006, 06:35 AM	#123
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I stumbled across the site searching for early Indian edged weaponry, interesting how the author writes about the influence and continuity of arms and armour through the ages by trade and cultural exchange. Anyone know of sites that show the other weaponry besides keris in the bas reliefs from Southeast Asian ruins? I'd like to compare later forms of blades that may have evolved from ancient periods as the of forging process advanced or changed over time. http://www.borobudur.tv/temple_index.htm http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/...bananindex.htm Last edited by MABAGANI; 17th January 2006 at 06:57 AM. Reason: added sites

17th January 2006, 10:43 PM	#125
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Indra is a deity ; how can we make assumptions about the composition of what a deity holds ? A 'Pusaka' is a cherished heirloom passed on from generation to generation within a family be they rich or poor . A Pusaka is not necessarily a keris it is a descriptive term ; it can be many other objects . Last edited by Rick; 17th January 2006 at 10:58 PM.

19th January 2006, 04:54 AM	#134
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	Malay inluence in Pamapanga (Province north of Manila). http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~camiling/malay.html Especially look at the comparison of the word Sundang and Kampilan. A part of my family is Kapampangan and I remember them saying they are decendants of Malays. Kapampangan word for sword = Palang In the PI, L and R are interchangable. Palang = Parang Although you say Javanese culture didnt spread that far north, at least Malay culture did, and they had keris too. I know theres more to research on my end, but thats all for now. I just found this: "The ancestors of the Kampampangans came from the Madjapahit Empire at the Malang Region in Central Java. They came with the second wave of Malayan migration - the last of the three prehistoric migrations that took place in the Philippines between 300 to 200 B.C.. These immigrants, led by the Prince Balagtas, settled along the costal areas of Luzon. These areas became the nucleus of the so-called Pampanga Empire, established and consolidated from 1335 to 1400 by Prince Balagtas, the first Pampango sovereign. This empire included all areas in Luzon from Manila up to Cagayan in the north. The coming of the Spaniards led to the eventual disintegration and diminution (decrease) of his empire. " http://www.geocities.com/pilipinoinj...ilippines.html Last edited by LabanTayo; 19th January 2006 at 05:07 AM.

19th January 2006, 06:38 PM	#138
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Laguna Copper Plate About : http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm

17th January 2006, 08:23 PM	#124
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	In the Rig Veda Indras thunderbolt weapon is described. It has a notched surface. It is firmly held in Indras hands. It is sthavira (stable) and Dgarnssi (durable). It is a fatal weapon made of a metal called Ayas. In relation the quote below taken from: http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ma...k_projects.htm • Rigveda mentions ayas about 10 times – e.g. Indra's horse had the same color as asay. (Assumed to be iron; but Tripathi disagrees because there is also Krishna-ayas, etc in texts.) Also, was iron found in neighboring countries, hence assumed to be from there. • Refuting the above, Tripathi finds that iron in India is much earlier. Baluchistan cemeteries have iron objects. Some earlier iron in western Asia was meteorite material sculptured as rock/stone carvings, and with no metallurgical processing at all. If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting. Such daggers would have been manufactured for ritual use and it’s probable that they were quite rare. I don’t think that they would have been used for fighting or put on display every day but where probably only used special rituals. Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka. Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect. I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated. Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

18th January 2006, 12:12 AM	#127
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The bible tells us that Jonah was swallowed by a whale and Jesus walked on water . Am I to take this literally ? I need a little more concrete evidence myself . Also we are now back to the meteorite iron thing . Now I won't contest that the keris is descended from Hindu weaponry ; it makes logical sense . For the rest I personally need more than religious allegory . As for the pusaka keris ; it does not necessarily have magic power ; rather it may just be an important family heirloom .

18th January 2006, 02:37 AM	#128
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	re: Deities in Hinduism and Buddhism, "swords represent cutting ignorance but to someone unfamiliar with the symbolism, it could represent some sort of violence. A sword is a symbol of enlightenment used to destroy ignorance which is the enemy of liberation from the bonds of wordly attachments." In regards to Indra and his thunderbolts, aren't they a metaphor for a meteoric weapon coming from the heavens as opposed to an actual weapon which no mortal could possess? unless they had reached the same spiritual realm, of course?

18th January 2006, 12:17 PM	#130
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	If one takes the Indra stories literally, the train of thought goes that they may have been extraterrestrial beings or from past lost civilizations before the great flood. That's pre present day human history as we know it, so how would that fit into the possible OM theory and Majapahit to modern keris timeline?

19th January 2006, 01:56 AM	#133
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Oh my, this thread has sure branched from the meaning of (to borrow a keris term) the Rhon Dha on a Moro kris (not keris) to the Indian influences and as is asserted by one forumite, Indian origin of the keris. Ok, so Im jumping back to talking about PI, so mainly kris. At least for me, I am still partial to the idea that the keris (which later evolves into the kris) came to PI along with Islam (not necessarily the full blown conversion of native populations but rather the early probings of muslim missionaries and traders I feel would be sufficient to bring its presence into the consciousness of Filipinos). Now, while I know it is often asserted that the Javanese empires extended into PI, thus bringing a pre-islamic keris culture into the islands, in other texts Ive read (Im forgetting the names right now) Javanese influence fell short of the totality of PI (eg. some influence on the Southern islands but little to no presence in the North such as Luzon). Does anyone have a good, contemporary book or link that can illustrate the Javanese empires encompassing the Philippines? I know I was surprised when in a class, the text we were using (I believe published in 2004) cut the Javanese reach off before it hit PI. I know that there have been movements in PI Universities to de-emphasize regional influences on early PI history for political reasons, and so dont know if this occurence was a product of politics or is the most current research (while we are limited in researching weapons, at least in academia there is strong emphasis on staying with current research). So any points in the direction of a book that can illustrate the presence of the Javanese empire in PI would be appreciated. Ok, now since I was talking about why I still am fond of the notion of the keris travelling into PI with Islam, I jumped off that topic, so Ill go back. How far into PI can we really find examples of keris or keris like objects? In Scott's book Barangay, he talks about Visayan and Southern Philippine weaponry, and notes that keris like weapons are found in both, but that the keris are better made in the South. I dont remember for sure if he mentions any presence in the North, but I seem to think that he did not (ok Im being lazy Im tired and dont feel like re-hitting the books at this moment before I get this thought out). So my question is, where can we find keris like weapons (either in text but pics would be awesome) in PI (eg. just the south and central PI or more widespread), and from what time period (I know there are Luzon kris made for the Katipunan but then the Katipunan dredged alot of their history/practices from all over which would not be applicable in a pre-Spanish PI)? At least to me, Scotts descriptions could still be in fitting with a Islamic introduction, as (depending on who you read) there is some merit to the fact that at least on Spanish arrival there were the beginnings of some Islamic inroads into Visayan regions. It would be interesting to compare where the kris form is found, and if there were ever Islamic colonies/missionaries/traders in that region at that time. Oh well...as usual Ive probably made no sense, I really gotta learn to check the forums when I am not super tired. ps. I am only talking about PI, and not the origins of keris in general.

19th January 2006, 05:13 PM	#137
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	Federico, With Clark AF Base in Angeles, alot of Kapampangans were brought over through marriage. My mothers family is from Quezon City, but some moved to Arayat back in the 60's and married Kapampangans. Its funny that the whole family speaks a mix of Tagalog (Grandmother), Illokano (Grandfather) and Kapampangan (some Aunts and Uncles). There are some words I thought were Tagalog and found out they were Kapampangan and vice versa. No wonder I always got funny looks in Manila when I would speak to people.

19th January 2006, 09:10 PM	#139
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	In William Scott's book, Barangay, he mentions that Lubao and another city in Pampanga, were Moro forts when the Spanish arrived. Another piece stating an Islamic/Malay presence north of the Visayas.

19th January 2006, 10:55 PM	#141
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Thanks for the book recommendation Mabagani, will get a copy asap. Also, thanks for the link Rick, great stuff. It will be interesting to see how this will change academic thought on the subject. I know Ive been very uncomfortable with the whole land bridge theory, for much of the same reasons as Mabagani. I know it is politically appealing, PI as having its own unique cultural origins non-dependent/influenced by foreign groups, but then the current PI map as a whole is such an artificial creation. Labantayo, I think we are on the same line on Malay presence in Luzon. Scott speaks of early settlements in the area, I believe Majul speaks on their Islamic origins and connections to other regional Sultanates. Now where I think we are having some mis-understanding is that earlier, when I was speaking of Javanese imperical inclusion, I was refering to PI's inclusion as part of the Javanese Majahapit empire. I do not feel that a few settlements, that at least some scholars have hinted at having possible Islamic origins (which would postdate the Majahapit Empire), necessarily proves that we were part of the Majahapit empire. Particularly since they are limited, eg. they do not cover all of Luzon, and are more localized to certain areas, I dont necessarily feel that a later Islamic colonial explanation for their occurence (particularly by the 16th century, the time in which Scott is referring) is unreasonable. If we were part of the Majahapit empire, I would imagine that a couple hundred years of inclusion would spread the influence further into the island. Though I suppose if we used the end date of the empire, then we could argue for an explanation of limited presence, but then I feel we come in conflict with the possible Islamic influences on these settlements. Oh well, anyways I just want to clarify once more, I never said there was no Malay influence on Luzon, but was rather questioning whether that influence constituted our inclusion in the Majahapit empire. Hmm...that was rather long winded and convoluted, oh well I suppose whats new from me.

21st January 2006, 08:32 AM	#142
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	A must read provided by Brian, B.I., "Malaysian Weapons in Arabic Literature" by S.Q.Fatima. It goes into the history of trade and swords in Southeast Asia from the bronze age to pre Islamic Arabia era and on until Christian contact. Ironically, the author's opinion mentions the Keris Suluk of Sulu as the blade closest in form to early bas-reliefs found in Java. Also mentions "main silat and bersilat" in relation to swordplay.