Question on tulwar blade construction

Pukka Bundook · 18th January 2016, 03:16 AM

Eric,

There Might be a photo on this forum from maybe 10 years ago.
If I cannot find the thread, I will take a photo or two.

By the pattern of the blade, the original broken off piece was re-joined.

Actually I had a look at this sword this morning, and the break was just at the end of the fullers, so maybe 9 inches from the tip.

Of course, attaching a hard edge to a softer blade, like an axe, has been common practice for maybe a thousand years, maybe more,

To be honest, unless we see documentation for the type of work we see in the swords above, I feel that some of them are definitely mended broken blades, rather than a recognised technique.
It is usually unsound practice to join two dissimilar metals, and expect them to work and flex together. The exception is the Japanese layering, or the old twisted rod construction where the mass becomes homogenous.
Some of the above blades are coming apart at the join.
Could not this have been spun into a story by those selling such blades in more recent times? We do see a lot of rubbish written.

Yes, we see evidence of joining, but Did they start out that way?
As we still see more old good quality sword blades worked in one piece, the above examples still compel me to think mended. :-)

I will look for that photo now;

Regards,
Richard.

estcrh · 18th January 2016, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

To be honest, unless we see documentation for the type of work we see in the swords above, I feel that some of them are definitely mended broken blades, rather than a recognised technique.
It is usually unsound practice to join two dissimilar metals, and expect them to work and flex together.

Why would a better piece of steel be attached to a lessor steel as in all of the swords I posted if it was known to cause problems, why not use like steels if these were indeed repairs? Just one of many questions.

Tulwar, early – mid 19 C., most probably from Rajasthan, India.

Quote:

The all wootz blade is 31 inches long constructed in the style known as scarf welding where it is forged welded from two wootz ingots ( a very common technique in Indian swords).

estcrh · 18th January 2016, 04:30 AM

Indian Tulwar/Talwar with a wootz blade from Gavin (swordsantiqueweapons)

Quote:

The blade is a scarf welded wootz contruction, it has a very nice curve and a sharp bevelled cutting edge free from nicks. The back edge at the tip is sharpened for approx 20cms.

estcrh · 18th January 2016, 04:57 AM

Cousin of the tulwar known as kirach or karach and it is characterized by the slightly down curving blade with the edge on the concave side and the down curving spine with a false edge.

Quote:

The blade is 32 inches long with 10 inches false edge forged from good Indian Damascus wootz (crystaline) steel, marked with armory marks on both sides as well as on the spine and made in the construction known as scarf welding. Scarf welding was done by welding two ingots of steel in or around the upper third part of the blade, in order to provide the blade with both strength and flexibility. It was a common technique since many centuries and found on both Indian and European quality swords. Here the welding point is clearly seen in the close ups as a darker semicircle.

RSWORD · 18th January 2016, 11:54 AM

The primary reason you see a scarf weld that is done towards the handle is due to the difficulty of forging wootz at the longer lengths. To draw out a long blade requires immense skill. You also run the risk of the material being brittle if not controlled perfectly. Plus, you have the expense involved. So it was quite common, as can be seen in the pictures, for the tang and first bit of blade to be a homogeneous steel and then the wootz welded to that. Not only does it make a strong join it is now less prone to being brittle and breaking. When you start getting to the middle of the blade and onward it seems less likely to be manufactured this way and more likely a repair. One observation is that most scarf welds I have seen that are located near the handle are done in an arc or semi circle and not a straight line. While not a blade smith or welder I would think this gives you the best possible join of the two materials.

ariel · 18th January 2016, 09:06 PM

Very good comment!
If I may add something: some wootz ingots were too small to suffice for the entire blade. That' s why we occasionally see scarf-welded long blades composed of two distinct wootz patterns.
This is admittedly rare and the previous comment covers 99% of composite cases.

Pukka Bundook · 19th January 2016, 02:17 AM

Ariel,

That's what I said at the top of this page.

Eric,

Here is a poor and old photo of the mended blade, the only photo I have at present. This is a very old mend, as all was covered with the same amount of rust.

The second picture are of the laminations as they showed after cleaning, but these are Not of the break area.
If you wish a close-up of the break I will oblige in due course.

All the best,
Richard.

Pukka Bundook · 18th January 2016, 04:32 AM

Ah Eric,

I quite agree with joined Wootz blades. The ingots were often too small for a complete blade and so were joined. This was common practice with Wootz.

But joining dissimilar metals sound dodgy at best.
In this, your questions are my questions as well!

I am not a person who has to be right in what I say or think. If I am wrong I am wrong, but it still looks like some of these are repairs carried out with whatever was available at the time, and one Is falling apart...

Best wishes,
Richard.

19th January 2016, 02:17 AM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ariel, That's what I said at the top of this page. Eric, Here is a poor and old photo of the mended blade, the only photo I have at present. This is a very old mend, as all was covered with the same amount of rust. The second picture are of the laminations as they showed after cleaning, but these are Not of the break area. If you wish a close-up of the break I will oblige in due course. All the best, Richard. Attached Images

18th January 2016, 03:16 AM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Eric, There Might be a photo on this forum from maybe 10 years ago. If I cannot find the thread, I will take a photo or two. By the pattern of the blade, the original broken off piece was re-joined. Actually I had a look at this sword this morning, and the break was just at the end of the fullers, so maybe 9 inches from the tip. Of course, attaching a hard edge to a softer blade, like an axe, has been common practice for maybe a thousand years, maybe more, To be honest, unless we see documentation for the type of work we see in the swords above, I feel that some of them are definitely mended broken blades, rather than a recognised technique. It is usually unsound practice to join two dissimilar metals, and expect them to work and flex together. The exception is the Japanese layering, or the old twisted rod construction where the mass becomes homogenous. Some of the above blades are coming apart at the join. Could not this have been spun into a story by those selling such blades in more recent times? We do see a lot of rubbish written. Yes, we see evidence of joining, but Did they start out that way? As we still see more old good quality sword blades worked in one piece, the above examples still compel me to think mended. :-) I will look for that photo now; Regards, Richard.

18th January 2016, 11:54 AM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	The primary reason you see a scarf weld that is done towards the handle is due to the difficulty of forging wootz at the longer lengths. To draw out a long blade requires immense skill. You also run the risk of the material being brittle if not controlled perfectly. Plus, you have the expense involved. So it was quite common, as can be seen in the pictures, for the tang and first bit of blade to be a homogeneous steel and then the wootz welded to that. Not only does it make a strong join it is now less prone to being brittle and breaking. When you start getting to the middle of the blade and onward it seems less likely to be manufactured this way and more likely a repair. One observation is that most scarf welds I have seen that are located near the handle are done in an arc or semi circle and not a straight line. While not a blade smith or welder I would think this gives you the best possible join of the two materials.

18th January 2016, 09:06 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very good comment! If I may add something: some wootz ingots were too small to suffice for the entire blade. That' s why we occasionally see scarf-welded long blades composed of two distinct wootz patterns. This is admittedly rare and the previous comment covers 99% of composite cases.

18th January 2016, 04:32 AM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Ah Eric, I quite agree with joined Wootz blades. The ingots were often too small for a complete blade and so were joined. This was common practice with Wootz. But joining dissimilar metals sound dodgy at best. In this, your questions are my questions as well! I am not a person who has to be right in what I say or think. If I am wrong I am wrong, but it still looks like some of these are repairs carried out with whatever was available at the time, and one Is falling apart... Best wishes, Richard.