Question on tulwar blade construction

ALEX · 12th January 2016, 11:21 AM

Unlike reinforced point on Ariel's tulwar, this one is not designed as such. The blade was broken and the tip was welded as in scarf-welding technique. it is good quality repair and likely an old one.

ariel · 12th January 2016, 12:21 PM

Alex,
You are absolutely right re. re-welding. The shadows in Pics 1 and 5 fooled me: they gave an impression of a swollen tip. Need new glasses....

ALEX · 12th January 2016, 01:15 PM

knew about the glasses, Ariel

Pukka Bundook · 12th January 2016, 01:45 PM

Yes, as Alex says, though I feel it may be a more modern mend.

The pin with washer looks fairly new to me, as it shows no sign of wear,
and the edges of the washer still look very square. Also the peened over pin looks half -peened, not like it would be done originally.
Not looking for fault, but this is as it appears.

Richard.

ALEX · 12th January 2016, 02:01 PM

I think the mend is too good to be modern. I do not know of anyone who can make anything like this, unless someone is willing to give 10 tulwars to repair one

Also, what's interesting is that there is no loss of wootz pattern near weld line, so someone knew how to control the heat not to destroy the pattern, and that is far above any modern skill IMHO.

Roland_M · 13th January 2016, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

someone knew how to control the heat not to destroy the pattern, and that is far above any modern skill IMHO.

This is no great problem!

The temperature for laminating such a blade is around 750°C. Wootz will forged at ~800°C.
A modern gas furnace with a temperature control unit can hold the temperature exactly at the preset value.

You can check the sword forum to see modern examples and you will be surprised, how good they are!

Roland

ALEX · 13th January 2016, 02:22 PM

Roland, in theory you're right. In practice, forging new wootz and repairing old is not the same. Once formed, wootz can be affected and even completely diminished by temperatures much lower than stated. and I am yet to see one modern example where wootz was not affected by mending/welding process. Perhaps I am missing the advances of modern technology, and hope a smith like Ric Furrer will comment on how easy it is to perform a mend such as above without affecting wootz structure.

RSWORD · 12th January 2016, 02:05 PM

I have seen many katar with scarf welded homogeneous steel tips that were heat treated. In those cases it added strength to this area. Haven't seen this on tulwar which makes this one likely a repair. However, the smith was knowledgeable of wootz as they managed the repair carefully, because you don't see much faded pattern at the join which would have required careful control of the heat.

Tony PP · 12th January 2016, 04:28 PM

Sorry to not agree with everybody but--- Unlikely to be a scarf joint. A scarf joint is when both ends are cut at an long angle and one side then slides over the other. This method is good for silver braze lead joints and if done neatly is nearly invisible. If you try to weld a scarf it is impossible to get full penetration and only the ends get welded. The blade in question has I think been joined by cutting each side into a v then welding. Pity that the welder has not found a better tip so now there is three different shades on one blade. If I do a weld I try to find a close match and use strips of steel from the replacement bit to use as the welding material Ok, never perfect, it is a repair but much better way than the sad blade being discussed.

estcrh · 14th January 2016, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony PP

Sorry to not agree with everybody but--- Unlikely to be a scarf joint. A scarf joint is when both ends are cut at an long angle and one side then slides over the other. This method is good for silver braze lead joints and if done neatly is nearly invisible. If you try to weld a scarf it is impossible to get full penetration and only the ends get welded. The blade in question has I think been joined by cutting each side into a v then welding. Pity that the welder has not found a better tip so now there is three different shades on one blade. If I do a weld I try to find a close match and use strips of steel from the replacement bit to use as the welding material Ok, never perfect, it is a repair but much better way than the sad blade being discussed.

Here is a period example of what would typically be called a "scarf weld". The blade is wootz and smaller part attached to the hilt is mono steel.

Pukka Bundook · 12th January 2016, 07:26 PM

A very good bladesmith mended one for me, (pattern -welded blade), and afterwards I could hardly find the join. This was done just a few years ago.
I would like to give the man credit, but he does not want to get inundated with this type of work, so asked me to keep it quiet.

I must respect that, but yes, it Is possible to have someone weld a blade and make an excellent job still.

What made me think the repair above was new-ish is the way the light catches the added piece;
It Appears to have multiple facets (or a bit wavey) on each side, not dead true as the rest of the blade seems to be.
It Is a good join though!!

Richard.

BluErf · 13th January 2016, 08:15 AM

Thank you all for sharing your valuable insights!

estcrh · 18th January 2016, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

A very good bladesmith mended one for me, (pattern -welded blade), and afterwards I could hardly find the join. This was done just a few years ago.
I would like to give the man credit, but he does not want to get inundated with this type of work, so asked me to keep it quiet.

I must respect that, but yes, it Is possible to have someone weld a blade and make an excellent job still.

Richard, can you post a picture of the blade? Was the blade snapped and re-welded or was a new piece of steel used?

12th January 2016, 04:28 PM	#9
Tony PP Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 26	Welding Sorry to not agree with everybody but--- Unlikely to be a scarf joint. A scarf joint is when both ends are cut at an long angle and one side then slides over the other. This method is good for silver braze lead joints and if done neatly is nearly invisible. If you try to weld a scarf it is impossible to get full penetration and only the ends get welded. The blade in question has I think been joined by cutting each side into a v then welding. Pity that the welder has not found a better tip so now there is three different shades on one blade. If I do a weld I try to find a close match and use strips of steel from the replacement bit to use as the welding material Ok, never perfect, it is a repair but much better way than the sad blade being discussed.

12th January 2016, 11:21 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Unlike reinforced point on Ariel's tulwar, this one is not designed as such. The blade was broken and the tip was welded as in scarf-welding technique. it is good quality repair and likely an old one.

12th January 2016, 12:21 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alex, You are absolutely right re. re-welding. The shadows in Pics 1 and 5 fooled me: they gave an impression of a swollen tip. Need new glasses....

12th January 2016, 01:15 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	knew about the glasses, Ariel

12th January 2016, 01:45 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Yes, as Alex says, though I feel it may be a more modern mend. The pin with washer looks fairly new to me, as it shows no sign of wear, and the edges of the washer still look very square. Also the peened over pin looks half -peened, not like it would be done originally. Not looking for fault, but this is as it appears. Richard.

12th January 2016, 02:01 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I think the mend is too good to be modern. I do not know of anyone who can make anything like this, unless someone is willing to give 10 tulwars to repair one Also, what's interesting is that there is no loss of wootz pattern near weld line, so someone knew how to control the heat not to destroy the pattern, and that is far above any modern skill IMHO.

13th January 2016, 02:22 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Roland, in theory you're right. In practice, forging new wootz and repairing old is not the same. Once formed, wootz can be affected and even completely diminished by temperatures much lower than stated. and I am yet to see one modern example where wootz was not affected by mending/welding process. Perhaps I am missing the advances of modern technology, and hope a smith like Ric Furrer will comment on how easy it is to perform a mend such as above without affecting wootz structure.

12th January 2016, 02:05 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	I have seen many katar with scarf welded homogeneous steel tips that were heat treated. In those cases it added strength to this area. Haven't seen this on tulwar which makes this one likely a repair. However, the smith was knowledgeable of wootz as they managed the repair carefully, because you don't see much faded pattern at the join which would have required careful control of the heat.

12th January 2016, 07:26 PM	#11
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	A very good bladesmith mended one for me, (pattern -welded blade), and afterwards I could hardly find the join. This was done just a few years ago. I would like to give the man credit, but he does not want to get inundated with this type of work, so asked me to keep it quiet. I must respect that, but yes, it Is possible to have someone weld a blade and make an excellent job still. What made me think the repair above was new-ish is the way the light catches the added piece; It Appears to have multiple facets (or a bit wavey) on each side, not dead true as the rest of the blade seems to be. It Is a good join though!! Richard.

13th January 2016, 08:15 AM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thank you all for sharing your valuable insights!