A GERMAN FIGHTING TWO HAND SWORD LATE 16 TH CENTURY

Cerjak · 9th January 2016, 10:17 AM

There is a point not debated yet : the leather grip ,there is no doubt that grip it is an early grip and seems commensurate with the age from the blade.
I have well understood the opinion from ulfberth but I would like to remember to all how many swords were wrongly classified as 19 th century because of such details.
We have in this case the hilt ,grip & pommel who are correct model and patterns for the period ,so doubts persist .

cornelistromp · 9th January 2016, 11:52 AM

I would not worry about it, the patina and pitting need not necessarilyto be equal.
the hilt of this type was originally blackened with a protective layer or browned, hot in oil.
suppose someone in the last 100 years of this 450 year old sword has cleaned the sword "thoroughly".
so mechanically removed the rust of the blade and worsed brushed the black coating of the hilt, because he wanted it to be shiny.
actually because the guard and pommel have a dull leaden look, I think they have been cleaned with acid !

The hilt is over 350 years been protected against oxidation and looks quite new now.
but the blade therein is 450 years exposed to oxygen and shows dark oxidation patches.
the style of your hilt is good, so is the rough forging typical for those two-handed swords. Most 19th/20th-century productions hilts are made too perfect and often wrong in type.
alongside Thom would certainly have placed a note in the description as he would have doubts about the hilt beeing of a later date.

best,
Jasper

ulfberth · 9th January 2016, 01:56 PM

First I think your sword is well worth the money paid for Jean Luc and it is used and re used far longer than most and this ads extra history not less.
I think its better for me to answer only at the questions that are asked, there is no point in giving something ( here being correct information) if they don't actually want it.
My opinion is a bit more than just that, its build with arguments and 38 years of experiance, not it could, what ifs and its possible.
Because in a conversation grounded on possibilities, everything is possible.
For example , it could be cleaned with acid, sure it could ( but the sword of Jean Luc has not been cleaned with acid) , but how are you to judge this Jasper ? How many times have you in your profession used acid for cleaning and saw the results of it first hand ? And if not how are you going to know? From a book ? Or because someone told you....
A few decades ago I , and this is a fact visited a big collection of 16th and 17th C swords and arms and armor in the Netherlands, when I asked the owner why all his swords had such strange landmap swirl like patina on them he honestly stated, oh they were all cleaned with acid long ago thats what they did back than.... This was on august the 31 the year was 1997 aprox. 11 am , and this guy was serious about this, I just shut my mouth.

Now about the grip , I would like to pose a question to anyone with knowledge what about this grip it looks old, is it 17 the C or could it be ?

Kind regards

Ulfberth

ulfberth · 9th January 2016, 02:08 PM

Jasper, could you please show me how a sword cleaned or treated with acid looks ?

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

I would not worry about it, the patina and pitting need not necessarilyto be equal.
the hilt of this type was originally blackened with a protective layer or browned, hot in oil.
suppose someone in the last 100 years of this 450 year old sword has cleaned the sword "thoroughly".
so mechanically removed the rust of the blade and worsed brushed the black coating of the hilt, because he wanted it to be shiny.
actually because the guard and pommel have a dull leaden look, I think they have been cleaned with acid !

The hilt is over 350 years been protected against oxidation and looks quite new now.
but the blade therein is 450 years exposed to oxygen and shows dark oxidation patches.
the style of your hilt is good, so is the rough forging typical for those two-handed swords. Most 19th/20th-century productions hilts are made too perfect and often wrong in type.
alongside Thom would certainly have placed a note in the description as he would have doubts about the hilt beeing of a later date.

best,
Jasper

cornelistromp · 9th January 2016, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Jasper, could you please show me how a sword cleaned or treated with acid looks ?

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Of course, only my literature is stored for a renovation.
it looks dull like lead.
in records of the medieval sword by Oakeshott is a sword particularly described which is cleaned with acid. I believe a type X without a crossguard and with important silver inlays.oakshott exuberantly describes the dull look like lead and describes the restoration of this sword, where by polishing the nice dark metal look reappears.

best,
jasper

cornelistromp · 9th January 2016, 04:16 PM

ah I found a digital copy of ROMS it is x.10.

see text under condition, left is acid cleaned and right is polished.

ulfberth · 9th January 2016, 05:19 PM

Jasper thank you for the description from the book, but can you recognise a sword that has been treated with acid ?
Because I can assure you the sword of Jean Luc has not been treated with acid and any old wax on polished metal that catches dust and moisture over time will get the dull lead look.

kind regards

Ulfberth

cornelistromp · 9th January 2016, 06:58 PM

yes i can tell if sword parts are treated with acid, actually anybody with reasonable eyesight can do this.

however this acid discussion is not so important in this case.

more important is that a beautiful homogeneous original sword is almost classified as a composite one with later hilt parts, this is done without a proper and solid substantiation.

we have differences of opinion here, but that's fine.

best,
Jasper

9th January 2016, 11:52 AM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	I would not worry about it, the patina and pitting need not necessarilyto be equal. the hilt of this type was originally blackened with a protective layer or browned, hot in oil. suppose someone in the last 100 years of this 450 year old sword has cleaned the sword "thoroughly". so mechanically removed the rust of the blade and worsed brushed the black coating of the hilt, because he wanted it to be shiny. actually because the guard and pommel have a dull leaden look, I think they have been cleaned with acid ! The hilt is over 350 years been protected against oxidation and looks quite new now. but the blade therein is 450 years exposed to oxygen and shows dark oxidation patches. the style of your hilt is good, so is the rough forging typical for those two-handed swords. Most 19th/20th-century productions hilts are made too perfect and often wrong in type. alongside Thom would certainly have placed a note in the description as he would have doubts about the hilt beeing of a later date. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 9th January 2016 at 01:08 PM.

9th January 2016, 01:56 PM	#3
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 430	First I think your sword is well worth the money paid for Jean Luc and it is used and re used far longer than most and this ads extra history not less. I think its better for me to answer only at the questions that are asked, there is no point in giving something ( here being correct information) if they don't actually want it. My opinion is a bit more than just that, its build with arguments and 38 years of experiance, not it could, what ifs and its possible. Because in a conversation grounded on possibilities, everything is possible. For example , it could be cleaned with acid, sure it could ( but the sword of Jean Luc has not been cleaned with acid) , but how are you to judge this Jasper ? How many times have you in your profession used acid for cleaning and saw the results of it first hand ? And if not how are you going to know? From a book ? Or because someone told you.... A few decades ago I , and this is a fact visited a big collection of 16th and 17th C swords and arms and armor in the Netherlands, when I asked the owner why all his swords had such strange landmap swirl like patina on them he honestly stated, oh they were all cleaned with acid long ago thats what they did back than.... This was on august the 31 the year was 1997 aprox. 11 am , and this guy was serious about this, I just shut my mouth. Now about the grip , I would like to pose a question to anyone with knowledge what about this grip it looks old, is it 17 the C or could it be ? Kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

9th January 2016, 04:16 PM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	ah I found a digital copy of ROMS it is x.10. see text under condition, left is acid cleaned and right is polished. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 9th January 2016 at 07:42 PM.

9th January 2016, 10:17 AM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	There is a point not debated yet : the leather grip ,there is no doubt that grip it is an early grip and seems commensurate with the age from the blade. I have well understood the opinion from ulfberth but I would like to remember to all how many swords were wrongly classified as 19 th century because of such details. We have in this case the hilt ,grip & pommel who are correct model and patterns for the period ,so doubts persist .

9th January 2016, 05:19 PM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 430	Jasper thank you for the description from the book, but can you recognise a sword that has been treated with acid ? Because I can assure you the sword of Jean Luc has not been treated with acid and any old wax on polished metal that catches dust and moisture over time will get the dull lead look. kind regards Ulfberth

9th January 2016, 06:58 PM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	yes i can tell if sword parts are treated with acid, actually anybody with reasonable eyesight can do this. however this acid discussion is not so important in this case. more important is that a beautiful homogeneous original sword is almost classified as a composite one with later hilt parts, this is done without a proper and solid substantiation. we have differences of opinion here, but that's fine. best, Jasper