The value of the additional visual sources for the study of historical weapons.

fernando · 7th January 2016, 04:09 PM

This illustration appears in page 247 of Portugal History (directed J.H.Saraiva) where the author narrates the invasion of the Iberian Peninsula by the Berbere Tärik b. Ziyäd, in the year 711 (92 Hegira, Rajab-Sha'ban ), landing in Gibraltar (Djabal al-Tarik). Unfortunately the illustration is not dated, although one may assume that it is consistent with the related period.
Whether more or less stilysed, one can not deny that the swords carried by the Islamic knights are sligthly curved, the term sabre being pertinent in this case.

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Jens Nordlunde · 7th January 2016, 04:23 PM

Wrong thread - sorry.
Good illustration Fernando :-)

ariel · 7th January 2016, 11:37 PM

The more I look at the picture, the more doubts I have...

First, it cannot come from the Arab source. By the beginning of the 8th century, the idea of aniconism ( ban on human images) was already in a full swing in the Arab world.
Second, the style is Persian/Indopersian, even with clouds in the style of Chinese "chi"
Third, the armour looks East Asian: Mongols? Chinese? Even Persian, may be (???)
Fourth, composite bows.

My guess , this picture might be a part of Persian/ Moghul collection of miniatures 15-17 century.

The fact that it was used in a book dedicated to the history of Portugal and supposedly attributable to the battle at Jabal-al-Tariq is suspect. Not every reference or iconographic source can be accepted at face value.

I would dearly love to be wrong, but would need much more supportive evidence.

Sancar · 8th January 2016, 09:55 AM

This painting has nothing to do with Umayyad general Tarık Bin Ziyad or his invasion of Andulusian Spain. This is a scene from Shahnama, named "Charge of the Cavaliers of Faramouz". I can't say which time and place this miniature was painted for sure, but my educated guess is possibly in Iran, and more likely from post-Ilkhanid. It might be from Turkmen schools of art of Herat or Shiraz, or from Jelayirid period. The style of art looks like it is before Timurid period, so somewhere between Jalayirids and Timurids.

ariel · 8th January 2016, 11:29 AM

Thanks for the precise attribution. Very impressive.

fernando · 8th January 2016, 12:43 PM

Precious input, Sancar. While your info is the correct one, this saves me from having to contact the publishers of 'History of Portugal' work, for further details, something i promised and was about to do.
Now it is easy to browse the Net and learn that this is a work of Persian school, a gouache on paper by Abu'l-Qasim Manur Firdawsi (C.934-C.1020).
On the other hand ...
I did not say that this scene represented the invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, but was in the same page where the author narrates such events, apparently to call our attention for the efficiency of Islamic cavalry. What the legend side note refers is that "the quick progression of the Islamic armies, not only in the Iberian Peninsula but equally in other zones atacked by the Cavaliers of Islam (up to the Anatolic borders of the Bizantine empire, to the margins of the Indo and Uzbesquitan) was fundamentally based on the contingents of light cavalry, and so on ..."
Whether the parallelism between such scenes or the example chosen by the author is not so fortunate, is another issue.

ariel · 8th January 2016, 05:16 PM

Even worse: Firdawsi (10-11 cen) was the author of Shahname.
The miniature as per net references is either 14 or 17 century.

7th January 2016, 04:09 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	This illustration appears in page 247 of Portugal History (directed J.H.Saraiva) where the author narrates the invasion of the Iberian Peninsula by the Berbere Tärik b. Ziyäd, in the year 711 (92 Hegira, Rajab-Sha'ban ), landing in Gibraltar (Djabal al-Tarik). Unfortunately the illustration is not dated, although one may assume that it is consistent with the related period. Whether more or less stilysed, one can not deny that the swords carried by the Islamic knights are sligthly curved, the term sabre being pertinent in this case. . Attached Images

7th January 2016, 11:37 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The more I look at the picture, the more doubts I have... First, it cannot come from the Arab source. By the beginning of the 8th century, the idea of aniconism ( ban on human images) was already in a full swing in the Arab world. Second, the style is Persian/Indopersian, even with clouds in the style of Chinese "chi" Third, the armour looks East Asian: Mongols? Chinese? Even Persian, may be (???) Fourth, composite bows. My guess , this picture might be a part of Persian/ Moghul collection of miniatures 15-17 century. The fact that it was used in a book dedicated to the history of Portugal and supposedly attributable to the battle at Jabal-al-Tariq is suspect. Not every reference or iconographic source can be accepted at face value. I would dearly love to be wrong, but would need much more supportive evidence. Last edited by ariel; 8th January 2016 at 07:06 AM.

7th January 2016, 04:23 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Wrong thread - sorry. Good illustration Fernando :-)

8th January 2016, 09:55 AM	#4
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	This painting has nothing to do with Umayyad general Tarık Bin Ziyad or his invasion of Andulusian Spain. This is a scene from Shahnama, named "Charge of the Cavaliers of Faramouz". I can't say which time and place this miniature was painted for sure, but my educated guess is possibly in Iran, and more likely from post-Ilkhanid. It might be from Turkmen schools of art of Herat or Shiraz, or from Jelayirid period. The style of art looks like it is before Timurid period, so somewhere between Jalayirids and Timurids.

8th January 2016, 11:29 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for the precise attribution. Very impressive.

8th January 2016, 12:43 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Precious input, Sancar. While your info is the correct one, this saves me from having to contact the publishers of 'History of Portugal' work, for further details, something i promised and was about to do. Now it is easy to browse the Net and learn that this is a work of Persian school, a gouache on paper by Abu'l-Qasim Manur Firdawsi (C.934-C.1020). On the other hand ... I did not say that this scene represented the invasion of the Iberian Peninsula, but was in the same page where the author narrates such events, apparently to call our attention for the efficiency of Islamic cavalry. What the legend side note refers is that "the quick progression of the Islamic armies, not only in the Iberian Peninsula but equally in other zones atacked by the Cavaliers of Islam (up to the Anatolic borders of the Bizantine empire, to the margins of the Indo and Uzbesquitan) was fundamentally based on the contingents of light cavalry, and so on ..." Whether the parallelism between such scenes or the example chosen by the author is not so fortunate, is another issue.

8th January 2016, 05:16 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Even worse: Firdawsi (10-11 cen) was the author of Shahname. The miniature as per net references is either 14 or 17 century.