Mandinka Sword Mark

Tim Simmons · 1st January 2016, 04:46 PM

Who knows how strict or how slack or the proper stamping procedure now?

RobertGuy · 1st January 2016, 07:37 PM

The fuller looks too narrow for a British 1796 LC sword. Similar to the 1896 Mountain Artillery blade, however the crown mark is not a British Inspection stamp. It does not look like there is enough room on the blade but could WARREN actually be WARRENTED a mark often seen on British and German made blades. My money would be on a Solingen blade, otherwise Bezdek gives Thomas Warren and successor Mary Warren trading at Chancery Lane 1846 - 1871.

Tim Simmons · 1st January 2016, 09:47 PM

Multiple private manufactures were producing versions hence the problem with quality. I will scan the illustration of the inspection mark. You have to bear in mind a time that is just before mechanized, standardized, industry and government issue. Yes the blades were influenced by Germanic forms.

Germany was not a unified state at this time so I am not sure the crown mark is anything to do with Solingen? A state crown did not appear until 1871. Austria had a crown and the Army museum publication does say that the 1796 blade was followed from the Austrian sword.

Bavarian perhaps?

Tim Simmons · 1st January 2016, 10:45 PM

This could help, but again before true standardisation.

mrcjgscott · 2nd January 2016, 03:29 PM

Certainly not 1796 light cavalry blade. More likely a hanger or cutlass blade which has been reworked.

The marking could be that of the East India Company, and is probably "Warranted" or a shortening there of as Robert has already suggested.

Kind regards,

Chris

Helleri · 7th January 2016, 04:38 PM

I am really only familiar with silver assay marks so I don't know how helpful this is. But Sheffield, England has always used the crown in combination with the lion. The arrangement and specific crown and lion used indicates the year. but they are stamped left to right. Of course this is not silver. But if people are thinking England but no clue on specifically where. The crown and lion are a Sheffield thing. And Sheffield does have an extensive history with cutlery as well, sooo...maybe?

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2016, 11:19 PM

I think everyone has made great suggestions here, and for me I remain inclined to see this as a M1796 light cavalry blade. As Iain has noted, the British inspection stamps were crowns over numbers and punched singly in the forte region without other marks.
The idea of the warranted banner is excellent as the blades of these times into early years of the 19th often had warranted placed at some location, it seems like most often however they were on officers blades. Also, it does appear that the word ran out of room in its placement if that be the case.

Also, the name of the maker or contractor in these times was usually punched at the blade spine just under hilt. I have not seen a crowned lion as far as I recall in this manner on British blades.

The Manding in these regions were profoundly merchants and traders in this hub of trade in the Sahara, so all manner of foreign blades were available to them. Mostly we see French cavalry blades or Solingen sabre blades, but British are sometimes seen, usually later in the 19th.
The British M1796 seems to have had a long and quite diffused life, and many of these ended up in the Spanish colonial (often termed Berber) sabres, usually reprofiled tips. These are often cold stamped with names of importers etc. Perhaps this might be one of such coming into the Maghrebi entrepots and traded to the south?

BTW, I think Helleri has a very good point, often these hallmark symbols seem to have become in some degree associated with markings used on blades, and their characteristics and configurations as in multiples. In most hallmarking it seems there are groupings of several together.

With the note on East India Company, the rampant lion was indeed the bale mark for the Company c. 1810 which replaced the quadrant heart V/E/I/C
but according to David Harding ("Small Arms of the East India Company") such marks were never used on swords, only on firearms.
I would note here that though that be the case, industrious armourers in the Northwest Frontiers of India, where among other arms, these blades certainly prevailed, it does not seem unlikely that these artisans might have reproduced such marks just as they have long done on gunlocks.

This might account as well for the misplacement of the warranted banner.

It seems plausible such 'recycled' blades among other materials would have entered Red Sea trade networks via Omani traders and perhaps into the routes into the interior where they might have eventually reached Mali.

1st January 2016, 09:47 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	Multiple private manufactures were producing versions hence the problem with quality. I will scan the illustration of the inspection mark. You have to bear in mind a time that is just before mechanized, standardized, industry and government issue. Yes the blades were influenced by Germanic forms. Germany was not a unified state at this time so I am not sure the crown mark is anything to do with Solingen? A state crown did not appear until 1871. Austria had a crown and the Army museum publication does say that the 1796 blade was followed from the Austrian sword. Bavarian perhaps? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 1st January 2016 at 10:27 PM.

1st January 2016, 04:46 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	Who knows how strict or how slack or the proper stamping procedure now?

1st January 2016, 07:37 PM	#2
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	The fuller looks too narrow for a British 1796 LC sword. Similar to the 1896 Mountain Artillery blade, however the crown mark is not a British Inspection stamp. It does not look like there is enough room on the blade but could WARREN actually be WARRENTED a mark often seen on British and German made blades. My money would be on a Solingen blade, otherwise Bezdek gives Thomas Warren and successor Mary Warren trading at Chancery Lane 1846 - 1871.

2nd January 2016, 03:29 PM	#5
mrcjgscott Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 189	Certainly not 1796 light cavalry blade. More likely a hanger or cutlass blade which has been reworked. The marking could be that of the East India Company, and is probably "Warranted" or a shortening there of as Robert has already suggested. Kind regards, Chris

7th January 2016, 04:38 PM	#6
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	I am really only familiar with silver assay marks so I don't know how helpful this is. But Sheffield, England has always used the crown in combination with the lion. The arrangement and specific crown and lion used indicates the year. but they are stamped left to right. Of course this is not silver. But if people are thinking England but no clue on specifically where. The crown and lion are a Sheffield thing. And Sheffield does have an extensive history with cutlery as well, sooo...maybe?

7th January 2016, 11:19 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,597	I think everyone has made great suggestions here, and for me I remain inclined to see this as a M1796 light cavalry blade. As Iain has noted, the British inspection stamps were crowns over numbers and punched singly in the forte region without other marks. The idea of the warranted banner is excellent as the blades of these times into early years of the 19th often had warranted placed at some location, it seems like most often however they were on officers blades. Also, it does appear that the word ran out of room in its placement if that be the case. Also, the name of the maker or contractor in these times was usually punched at the blade spine just under hilt. I have not seen a crowned lion as far as I recall in this manner on British blades. The Manding in these regions were profoundly merchants and traders in this hub of trade in the Sahara, so all manner of foreign blades were available to them. Mostly we see French cavalry blades or Solingen sabre blades, but British are sometimes seen, usually later in the 19th. The British M1796 seems to have had a long and quite diffused life, and many of these ended up in the Spanish colonial (often termed Berber) sabres, usually reprofiled tips. These are often cold stamped with names of importers etc. Perhaps this might be one of such coming into the Maghrebi entrepots and traded to the south? BTW, I think Helleri has a very good point, often these hallmark symbols seem to have become in some degree associated with markings used on blades, and their characteristics and configurations as in multiples. In most hallmarking it seems there are groupings of several together. With the note on East India Company, the rampant lion was indeed the bale mark for the Company c. 1810 which replaced the quadrant heart V/E/I/C but according to David Harding ("Small Arms of the East India Company") such marks were never used on swords, only on firearms. I would note here that though that be the case, industrious armourers in the Northwest Frontiers of India, where among other arms, these blades certainly prevailed, it does not seem unlikely that these artisans might have reproduced such marks just as they have long done on gunlocks. This might account as well for the misplacement of the warranted banner. It seems plausible such 'recycled' blades among other materials would have entered Red Sea trade networks via Omani traders and perhaps into the routes into the interior where they might have eventually reached Mali.