Tipu Sword

Jens Nordlunde · 10th January 2005, 09:45 PM

Hi Brian,

I think it is a very interesting topic you have started, a subject some know about, but many don't.
The Tipu sword given to the Duke of Wellington is an interesting one, although I would have liked to see the blade and the top of the disc.
The quality seems to be very high, but I must say, that I personally find the design a bit busy. I like reliefs on hilts, but like Hendley and Watt writes the ealier hilt decorations were more ‘quiet’.

Thank you for starting the subject.

Jens

B.I · 10th January 2005, 10:30 PM

hi jens,
i know of your passion for pommels, but to take a picture of the pommel would require either 8 foot long arms or a step ladder. as the curator was kind enough to allow me in to see them, i thought a step ladder pushing my luck. sorry about the arms.
i know what you mean by busy but i dont find this at all. this style of decoration is of the highest quality and the fact that it is completely geometric shows the artistry to be of a top calibre. the 19thC koftgari was second rate in comparison. the decoration is of the 18thC and there is a katar in the wallace collection of the same style of work.
this is true tahinashan and very rare at this level.
as you say, hendley claims the best form of tahinishan to be of a simpler design but i cant see fault in this at all. i think mr hendley had more to compare it with

in the same paragraph, he goes on to mention a sword hilt from tonk in the V&A (then the south kensington museum). i have seen the hilt in question and and the embossed flowers were bold and i suppose of a simpler, less busy design, but i personally think the wellington hilt of a higher quality.
this same hilt (from tonk) was illustrated by h.h.cole in his photographic book of the simla exhibition of 1881 and so they both may agree with you

B.I · 10th January 2005, 10:38 PM

oh, i forgot. the blade is sheathed but it is straight and wide. the photo shows a slight tilt to one side, but not sure if this is the case or its an optical illusion.
i'll risk showing the kris on the cabinet, knowing we will struggle to keep this post indian if i do

Jens Nordlunde · 11th January 2005, 09:04 AM

Hi Brian,

I don’t doubt that the quality of the Tipu sword is very high, my comment on the business of the design is my personnel opinion of designs in general, and I might very well change my mind if I had had an opportunity to see the sword.
The sword display is very nice, and so is the keris. BTW of the mails I have read about kerises I don’t remember to have seen any references to kerieses being used in India – they were, so maybe the keris you show ‘fits’ into the picture. In Robert Elgoods new book there are pictures showing warriors armed with a keris and a tulwar.

Jens

B.I · 11th January 2005, 12:41 PM

i was teasing you jens, i know that decoration is down to opinion only, and i know that you will be suitably impressed if you saw this sword in life. who knows, maybe i'll get a chance to show it to you at some point.
i think you tread on dangerous ground, mr nordlunde. the keris in india? we stand a good chance of being flogged alive on this forum

an interesting note. herman goetz had full access to the bikaner amroury, and its accession notes (what little there was) as he wrote a book under the patronage of the maharja at the time. apparantly there is a sword owned by akbar in the armoury. it has a persian blade with an inscribed cartouche (no reference to the inscription stating its ownership) and a malaysian hilt! (cross piece is missing but hilt and blade show the witness marks of tis existence).
i dont know where the akbar attribution came from, but the malaysian hilt was no doubt adopted from a piece that was admired at the time, if not by akbar then by some important moghul/rajput.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th January 2005, 01:55 PM

Hi Brian,

Hmm yes, it occurred to me that you did try to pull my leg – now, which leg was it, the wooden one or the other?
Maybe I will be flogged, but let the ones doing so prove me wrong, it is all there in clear pictures, besides for the interesting text Robert Elgood writes about the kris in the Glossary.
I have only, very briefly, been the owner of a kris with a golden hilt, but that is many years ago – maybe I should have kept it.
The knife in the Bikarner armoury with the Persian blade and Malayan hilt, could have been a gift from someone, a pity that Herman Goetz did not draw it or at least describe it more in detail.

Jens

B.I · 11th January 2005, 02:13 PM

have i ever let you down, jens?
it took me years to find this book and it cost the price of a wooden leg but was worth it.

10th January 2005, 10:30 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	decoration hi jens, i know of your passion for pommels, but to take a picture of the pommel would require either 8 foot long arms or a step ladder. as the curator was kind enough to allow me in to see them, i thought a step ladder pushing my luck. sorry about the arms. i know what you mean by busy but i dont find this at all. this style of decoration is of the highest quality and the fact that it is completely geometric shows the artistry to be of a top calibre. the 19thC koftgari was second rate in comparison. the decoration is of the 18thC and there is a katar in the wallace collection of the same style of work. this is true tahinashan and very rare at this level. as you say, hendley claims the best form of tahinishan to be of a simpler design but i cant see fault in this at all. i think mr hendley had more to compare it with in the same paragraph, he goes on to mention a sword hilt from tonk in the V&A (then the south kensington museum). i have seen the hilt in question and and the embossed flowers were bold and i suppose of a simpler, less busy design, but i personally think the wellington hilt of a higher quality. this same hilt (from tonk) was illustrated by h.h.cole in his photographic book of the simla exhibition of 1881 and so they both may agree with you

10th January 2005, 10:38 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	blade oh, i forgot. the blade is sheathed but it is straight and wide. the photo shows a slight tilt to one side, but not sure if this is the case or its an optical illusion. i'll risk showing the kris on the cabinet, knowing we will struggle to keep this post indian if i do Attached Images

11th January 2005, 12:41 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	dangerous ground i was teasing you jens, i know that decoration is down to opinion only, and i know that you will be suitably impressed if you saw this sword in life. who knows, maybe i'll get a chance to show it to you at some point. i think you tread on dangerous ground, mr nordlunde. the keris in india? we stand a good chance of being flogged alive on this forum an interesting note. herman goetz had full access to the bikaner amroury, and its accession notes (what little there was) as he wrote a book under the patronage of the maharja at the time. apparantly there is a sword owned by akbar in the armoury. it has a persian blade with an inscribed cartouche (no reference to the inscription stating its ownership) and a malaysian hilt! (cross piece is missing but hilt and blade show the witness marks of tis existence). i dont know where the akbar attribution came from, but the malaysian hilt was no doubt adopted from a piece that was admired at the time, if not by akbar then by some important moghul/rajput.

11th January 2005, 02:13 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	wooden leg have i ever let you down, jens? it took me years to find this book and it cost the price of a wooden leg but was worth it. Attached Images

10th January 2005, 09:45 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Brian, I think it is a very interesting topic you have started, a subject some know about, but many don't. The Tipu sword given to the Duke of Wellington is an interesting one, although I would have liked to see the blade and the top of the disc. The quality seems to be very high, but I must say, that I personally find the design a bit busy. I like reliefs on hilts, but like Hendley and Watt writes the ealier hilt decorations were more ‘quiet’. Thank you for starting the subject. Jens

11th January 2005, 09:04 AM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Brian, I don’t doubt that the quality of the Tipu sword is very high, my comment on the business of the design is my personnel opinion of designs in general, and I might very well change my mind if I had had an opportunity to see the sword. The sword display is very nice, and so is the keris. BTW of the mails I have read about kerises I don’t remember to have seen any references to kerieses being used in India – they were, so maybe the keris you show ‘fits’ into the picture. In Robert Elgoods new book there are pictures showing warriors armed with a keris and a tulwar. Jens

11th January 2005, 01:55 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Brian, Hmm yes, it occurred to me that you did try to pull my leg – now, which leg was it, the wooden one or the other? Maybe I will be flogged, but let the ones doing so prove me wrong, it is all there in clear pictures, besides for the interesting text Robert Elgood writes about the kris in the Glossary. I have only, very briefly, been the owner of a kris with a golden hilt, but that is many years ago – maybe I should have kept it. The knife in the Bikarner armoury with the Persian blade and Malayan hilt, could have been a gift from someone, a pity that Herman Goetz did not draw it or at least describe it more in detail. Jens