Candi Sukuh carving, keris mythology - Page 2

A. G. Maisey · 21st December 2015, 10:04 PM

Thanks for your response Pusaka. Do you recall the names of your sources?

I'm asking, because there is a lot of very dubious information available these days, most especially from web sources. We need to not only find the information sought, but also to verify the source. The web has made a lot of things easier, but at the same time more difficult.

That line of descent first appears in Pangeran Wijil's babad "Silsilah Mpu Tanah Jawa".

It does not appear as a strict line of descent, but must be composed from an analysis of the text. Because of this, there are variations in interpretation. The analysis that must be undertaken is not easy and requires strict adherence to analytical principles.

A further difficulty is that this babad is in Hanacaraka, which means that for a long time, translation to a Romanised text, or even to B.I. has been required before the analysis could be undertaken.

There is some disagreement as to which Pangeran Wijil wrote the babad. Some say it was written in Kartosuro before the move to Surakarta, others say it was written at a later date in Surakarta.

The text itself is very probably the foundation upon which the much later works that generated the Surakarta Tangguh System were built.

Pusaka · 21st December 2015, 10:05 PM

"Bathara Anggajali is the son Bathara Ramadi / Ramayadi, an expert blacksmith who was appointed as a god. Just like his father, also a blacksmith Bathara Anggajali reliable and skilled. Bathara Anggajali served atop Mount Jamurdipa to create powerful weapons belonged to the gods. In addition Bathara Anggajali also merge weapons and spell-spell of the evil kings and knights in the crater Chandradimuka. In the beginning, before being appointed to the gods, MPU Anggajali is a favorite of King Mahapunggung blacksmith, king Medhang Kamulan.

The weapons which were the work of Bathara Anggajali include:
-Trisula And Kyai Cis belonging Bathara Jaludara Teachers.
-Bajra (Lightning spear) belonging Bathara Indra.
-Busur Wijaya and Armor belonging Bathara Sun Solar.
-Pedang Chandrasa belongs Bathara Chandra.
-Cakra Baskara / Sudarshana Chakra belong Bathara Vishnu.
-Golok Way belongs Bathara Rudra and Bathara Yamadipati.
-Keris Kaladite-Kalanadhah of canine right-left and Arrow Pasopati of the tongue Bathara Kala.
-Kyai Kuntawijaya Danu previously belonged to Arjuna that eventually captured by Karna."
http://caritawayang.blogspot.com/201...i-bathara.html

Pusaka · 21st December 2015, 10:26 PM

A.G.Maisey, thanks for the info. I am stuck to using the web and even worse translated versions.

My interest was inspired by recalling what a guru told me, he said his teacher the sat guru believed the first keris was made by empu ramayadi under instruction of a saint who taught him the use of the 16 metals.

Well it stuck in my head for years and then recently I discovered there is text called: Caritaning Wesi saking panembahan karang (Treatise on the qualities, physical and spiritual, of diffrent irons used in forging of keris. The teachings of panembahan karang (Bathara Mudhik) to Empu Ramayadi)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false

So it would appear the story I was told is at least legitimate "mythology"

A. G. Maisey · 22nd December 2015, 06:58 AM

Yes, legitimate mythology, certainly.

A nice turn of phrase.

Those works listed in Nancy Florida's work are freely available for access at the Mangkunegaraan Library in Solo. During the 1980's I made photo-copies of all keris related books and manuscripts in that library, and the ones in Hanacaraka I had translated to B.I., I had a few of the romanised Javanese ones translated also, even in roman letters older Javanese is not so easy to read.

Pusaka · 22nd December 2015, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, legitimate mythology, certainly.

A nice turn of phrase.

Those works listed in Nancy Florida's work are freely available for access at the Mangkunegaraan Library in Solo. During the 1980's I made photo-copies of all keris related books and manuscripts in that library, and the ones in Hanacaraka I had translated to B.I., I had a few of the romanised Javanese ones translated also, even in roman letters older Javanese is not so easy to read.

Do you know if anyone has compiled English translations of these text, particularly interested in the title I mentioned above.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd December 2015, 09:03 PM

No, I do not.

In fact, for most of these works I may be the only person with B.I. translations.

Pusaka · 31st December 2015, 02:34 AM

It occurred to me that if Bhima is the empu and Arjuna manning the bellows in the Candi Sukuh carving then the creation of this keris is attributed to the Kshatriyas caste since Bhima/Arjuna both belong to that caste.

Do pande in anyway connect their caste with the Kshatriyas (warrior) caste?

It would seem logical since weapons and warriors are inseparable

21st December 2015, 10:04 PM	#31
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Thanks for your response Pusaka. Do you recall the names of your sources? I'm asking, because there is a lot of very dubious information available these days, most especially from web sources. We need to not only find the information sought, but also to verify the source. The web has made a lot of things easier, but at the same time more difficult. That line of descent first appears in Pangeran Wijil's babad "Silsilah Mpu Tanah Jawa". It does not appear as a strict line of descent, but must be composed from an analysis of the text. Because of this, there are variations in interpretation. The analysis that must be undertaken is not easy and requires strict adherence to analytical principles. A further difficulty is that this babad is in Hanacaraka, which means that for a long time, translation to a Romanised text, or even to B.I. has been required before the analysis could be undertaken. There is some disagreement as to which Pangeran Wijil wrote the babad. Some say it was written in Kartosuro before the move to Surakarta, others say it was written at a later date in Surakarta. The text itself is very probably the foundation upon which the much later works that generated the Surakarta Tangguh System were built.

21st December 2015, 10:05 PM	#32
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	"Bathara Anggajali is the son Bathara Ramadi / Ramayadi, an expert blacksmith who was appointed as a god. Just like his father, also a blacksmith Bathara Anggajali reliable and skilled. Bathara Anggajali served atop Mount Jamurdipa to create powerful weapons belonged to the gods. In addition Bathara Anggajali also merge weapons and spell-spell of the evil kings and knights in the crater Chandradimuka. In the beginning, before being appointed to the gods, MPU Anggajali is a favorite of King Mahapunggung blacksmith, king Medhang Kamulan. The weapons which were the work of Bathara Anggajali include: -Trisula And Kyai Cis belonging Bathara Jaludara Teachers. -Bajra (Lightning spear) belonging Bathara Indra. -Busur Wijaya and Armor belonging Bathara Sun Solar. -Pedang Chandrasa belongs Bathara Chandra. -Cakra Baskara / Sudarshana Chakra belong Bathara Vishnu. -Golok Way belongs Bathara Rudra and Bathara Yamadipati. -Keris Kaladite-Kalanadhah of canine right-left and Arrow Pasopati of the tongue Bathara Kala. -Kyai Kuntawijaya Danu previously belonged to Arjuna that eventually captured by Karna." http://caritawayang.blogspot.com/201...i-bathara.html

21st December 2015, 10:26 PM	#33
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	A.G.Maisey, thanks for the info. I am stuck to using the web and even worse translated versions. My interest was inspired by recalling what a guru told me, he said his teacher the sat guru believed the first keris was made by empu ramayadi under instruction of a saint who taught him the use of the 16 metals. Well it stuck in my head for years and then recently I discovered there is text called: Caritaning Wesi saking panembahan karang (Treatise on the qualities, physical and spiritual, of diffrent irons used in forging of keris. The teachings of panembahan karang (Bathara Mudhik) to Empu Ramayadi) https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false So it would appear the story I was told is at least legitimate "mythology"

22nd December 2015, 06:58 AM	#34
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes, legitimate mythology, certainly. A nice turn of phrase. Those works listed in Nancy Florida's work are freely available for access at the Mangkunegaraan Library in Solo. During the 1980's I made photo-copies of all keris related books and manuscripts in that library, and the ones in Hanacaraka I had translated to B.I., I had a few of the romanised Javanese ones translated also, even in roman letters older Javanese is not so easy to read.

22nd December 2015, 09:03 PM	#36
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	No, I do not. In fact, for most of these works I may be the only person with B.I. translations.

31st December 2015, 02:34 AM	#37
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	It occurred to me that if Bhima is the empu and Arjuna manning the bellows in the Candi Sukuh carving then the creation of this keris is attributed to the Kshatriyas caste since Bhima/Arjuna both belong to that caste. Do pande in anyway connect their caste with the Kshatriyas (warrior) caste? It would seem logical since weapons and warriors are inseparable