Is gold or suasa 'better'?

David · 29th December 2015, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The word "Susuhunan" is a Javanese word, it is the word that is used to refer to the Ruler of Surakarta, as far as I can ascertain, this word does not exist in Old Javanese, so it would appear to be unlikely that this word was used in reference to any ruler prior to the establishment of the Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat. The Karaton of Surakarta Hadiningrat was established in 1745 (or 1742) by Pakubuwana II. However, supposedly this word "Susuhunan" appears in text that was written some time prior to 1700.

To my mind there are just too many questions associated with this supposedly original comment made by G.E. Rumphius. Bearing in mind that the publication of his works, some time after his death, needed to be a commercial success, I really do think that examination of his original text would be needed to confirm some of the comments attributed to him, comments that would be of interest to a general readership.

Alan, if you noticed my post #36 you will see that i have placed a link to this published text in the original Old Dutch. Tricky to translate, but certainly doable i suppose. If you go to this text you will see that it is a searchable database. However, searches for "Susuhunan", "Sussuhunam" and "Sussuhunan" produce no hits whatsoever. I realize that Maurice is busy and my not return to this discussion anytime soon, but i am curious where the English translation he provided came from that uses the word "Sussuhunam" and what word was actual used in the original text in it's place.

Btw, just to clarify, i am not in the least skeptical that suasa as a talismanic metal could be wide ranging. My skepticism lay in the claim that it would ever be preferred over purer gold materials.

A. G. Maisey · 29th December 2015, 04:03 AM

Sorry for my misunderstanding of your scepticism David, however even if it was directed at the preference question, I believe we could possibly allow that in some places amongst some people, suasa might have been preferred to gold for specific purposes.

However we look at this matter, it seems to me that we're all pretty much on the same page.

I did not look at the Old Dutch text, I cannot make any sense of Modern Dutch, so I would have even less hope of making sense of Old Dutch.

Link in post 36

I've had a look at your link David.

See page 204, last para above the line and "V HOOFTDEEL"

It is spelt as "SUSSUHUNAM" with the double"S" looking like "FF"

So the published copy does have this word in place

kai · 29th December 2015, 11:22 AM

Hello David,

Quote:

If you go to this text you will see that it is a searchable database

This is a general feature (for digital texts) which does not work with photographed sources as in this case.

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 29th December 2015, 11:30 AM

I thought I was pretty familiar with the Ying Yai Sheng Lan, Kai, seems like I need to go back and do another read of it --- something I've been doing for about 50 years now --- I cannot recall anything in these reports that refers to suasa. Can you save me some time by directing me to the relevant passages?

Thanks.

kai · 29th December 2015, 12:00 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

I thought I was pretty familiar with the Ying Yai Sheng Lan, Kai, seems like I need to go back and do another read of it --- something I've been doing for about 50 years now --- I cannot recall anything in these reports that refers to suasa. Can you save me some time by directing me to the relevant passages

I was not referring to suasa being specifically discussed in any anals that I remember. I was just trying to get across that the Chinese anals and Rumpf's work are important early sources that deserve to be taken seriously (or rather properly researched) even if some details are obviously off (based on second-hand info or misunderstanding).

Regards,
Kai

David · 30th December 2015, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

This is a general feature (for digital texts) which does not work with photographed sources as in this case.

Sorry Kai, but you are incorrect on that one. Try putting in a word you know is there such as "Suaffa" or "Batavia". The search engine works just fine and the one on the bottom will give you indictor marks of all the places in the text where the word appears. Hover over the indicator and the passage will appear in a pop-up or click on the indicator and it will bring you directly to the page.
What this tells me is the the words "Sussuhunam" or "Susuhunan" are not in this text.
However, what i failed to do was to use "ff" instead of "ss" when searching the text. So one must search for "Suffuhunam" instead.

The only references point for this word in the text appear to be three, on pages 204, 205 and 206.

Shakethetrees · 30th December 2015, 07:23 AM

Is there any authoritative information available giving the composition of suassa?

I suspect it is a somewhat variable mix that was determined by availability, local tradition, or even the smith's personal composition.

There seems to be a good deal of color variation.

Alloys have always fascinated me, especially the ones that go against the Western tradition of maintaining a certain gold or silver standard.

What comes to mind are the many Japanese alloys developed for sword mount furniture, where minuscule amounts of precious metals were mixed with copper and other metals and treated with various chemicals achieving colors unavailable to traditional western metalwork.

This is something that should be studied.

29th December 2015, 04:03 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Sorry for my misunderstanding of your scepticism David, however even if it was directed at the preference question, I believe we could possibly allow that in some places amongst some people, suasa might have been preferred to gold for specific purposes. However we look at this matter, it seems to me that we're all pretty much on the same page. I did not look at the Old Dutch text, I cannot make any sense of Modern Dutch, so I would have even less hope of making sense of Old Dutch. Link in post 36 I've had a look at your link David. See page 204, last para above the line and "V HOOFTDEEL" It is spelt as "SUSSUHUNAM" with the double"S" looking like "FF" So the published copy does have this word in place Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 29th December 2015 at 07:47 AM. Reason: additional info

29th December 2015, 11:30 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I thought I was pretty familiar with the Ying Yai Sheng Lan, Kai, seems like I need to go back and do another read of it --- something I've been doing for about 50 years now --- I cannot recall anything in these reports that refers to suasa. Can you save me some time by directing me to the relevant passages? Thanks.

30th December 2015, 07:23 AM	#7
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Is there any authoritative information available giving the composition of suassa? I suspect it is a somewhat variable mix that was determined by availability, local tradition, or even the smith's personal composition. There seems to be a good deal of color variation. Alloys have always fascinated me, especially the ones that go against the Western tradition of maintaining a certain gold or silver standard. What comes to mind are the many Japanese alloys developed for sword mount furniture, where minuscule amounts of precious metals were mixed with copper and other metals and treated with various chemicals achieving colors unavailable to traditional western metalwork. This is something that should be studied.