Is gold or suasa 'better'?

David · 26th December 2015, 01:34 PM

Here are two Javanese hilts made from gold, claimed to be a very early example from around the 11th century and the the from the 15th century. They are part of the Thompson collection of gold objects from Jawa which can be viewed here. I have no idea what carat any of these items are as it is not stated.
http://artgallery.yale.edu/exhibitions/objects/665820

Maurice · 26th December 2015, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Here are two Javanese hilts made from gold, claimed to be a very early example from around the 11th century and the the from the 15th century. They are part of the Thompson collection of gold objects from Jawa which can be viewed here. I have no idea what carat any of these items are as it is not stated.
http://artgallery.yale.edu/exhibitions/objects/665820

Beautiful hilts David!

I am not familiar with this collection unfortunately.
Are they also collected at that early time, and by whom?

I have no doubt that they did adorne gold.
But I have doubts and believe that suassa at that time is underestimated by todays collectors.
As the text by the VOC'er tells us, there was gold used also. But talismanicly more preferred as gold. Not that they didn't use gold and had everything made from suassa.

David · 26th December 2015, 02:12 PM

Most of the items in this collection seem to be from the early and middle Classic Periods of Jawa (some a bit later) and you can find this collection in book form as Old Javanese Gold.
http://artgallery.yale.edu/publicati...ty-art-gallery
I would love to see such a collection of suasa items from Jawa or more examples of images of suasa used on Javanese and Bali keris that can help support Rumphius' assertion that it was preferred over gold. I really cannot think of too many examples that i have actually seen of suasa on Javanese or Bali keris (that is to say my idea of suasa, since Alan has stated that the 19k rose gold in in the Balinese court keris would perhaps be called suasa by an Indonesian).

David · 26th December 2015, 02:20 PM

Here is what Frey has to say on the Talismanic use of gold on keris. Like most writers on keris we all know that Frey has had his own problems with accuracy.
http://tinyurl.com/pqf4vfh

David · 26th December 2015, 02:38 PM

A Javanese keris from the late 18th century that once belonged to the Regent of Yogyakarta. The pendok is gold with green enamel inlays.
It also seems to me that the preferred material for kinatah is generally gold, not suasa.

Maurice · 26th December 2015, 06:20 PM

Nice kris David!

I agree about the prefered golden kinatah. And also I agree that most kerisses we know off use gold instead of suassa.
But that is not what I am trying to deny here.

A friend has a lovely Javanese keris with suassa pendok. Not much seen, but he has. And also I have seen a Javanese pedang lurus completely made of suassa instead of silver, which we normally see. This because they prefer silver over suassa? I don't think so. Suassa is much more rare in use somehow, and it is easy to say that because gold is more widespread that this was preferred over suassa.
As I can't imagine that silver is prefered above suassa also, and only know of one pedang lurus in suassa dress and lots of them in silver dresses....

Also I have seen Palembang kerisses with ivory hilt, suassa mendak/selut and also golden fittings here and there. Why not choosen for a golden mendak/selut?

Rumphius also is writing about gold in Indonesia. He writes the same you are telling, that everybody wants gold, and that they hammered it really thin to make krishilts, made from resin within and covered in a thin goldcover.
Btw he seemed not to be very fond of this gold over resin, and sees it as a falsification.

Rumphius also is telling a similar version which Alan is telling about the gold.
"Any native wants some gold in their houses, and no family was happy without having a piece of gold in their possession." But he is referring that back in those days it allready was not that much gold available as rumors were telling. Therefore they hammered it very thin, used plating etc. because it was so precious for everybody to own.
After this he is describing some gold and silver testings, and than the chapter of Suassa starts.
So he also was able to compare it with gold, and still needs te urge to mention the talismanic preference of suassa over gold (which was most wanted in the native possessions).

A. G. Maisey · 26th December 2015, 09:05 PM

In this matter under discussion, this is the situation as I understand it:-

The notes that G. E. Rumphius used to produce his masterwork were gathered in the 1600's and not published until the 1700's.

In this work he makes a comment based upon (at best) third or fourth hand information that infers a talismanic quality being attributed to suasa in what, at that time, was Mataram (Central Jawa).

So let us assume that it was at least rumoured that at some time, in some place suasa might have had some sort of talismanic quality attributed to it. Let us further assume that during the 1600's, in Central Jawa, suasa had a talismanic value attributed to it.

Personally, I have no problem at all with this, because in Jawa, talismanic values are attributed to just about everything under the sun (& moon & stars). Nothing exists or happens without having some sort of value being attributed to it by somebody.

However, I do have a couple of questions in respect of the comments attributed to G.E. Rumphius:-

1) are these comments on suasa sourced from a VOC journal?

2) in what published work are the reports of metallurgical examinations of suasa, sourced from the Dutch East Indies, reported?

and

3) do we know of any other historical reports that attribute talismanic qualities to suasa, in any other place in the geographic locations where suasa was produced?

26th December 2015, 01:34 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Here are two Javanese hilts made from gold, claimed to be a very early example from around the 11th century and the the from the 15th century. They are part of the Thompson collection of gold objects from Jawa which can be viewed here. I have no idea what carat any of these items are as it is not stated. http://artgallery.yale.edu/exhibitions/objects/665820 Attached Images

26th December 2015, 02:38 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	A Javanese keris from the late 18th century that once belonged to the Regent of Yogyakarta. The pendok is gold with green enamel inlays. It also seems to me that the preferred material for kinatah is generally gold, not suasa. Attached Images

26th December 2015, 02:12 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Most of the items in this collection seem to be from the early and middle Classic Periods of Jawa (some a bit later) and you can find this collection in book form as Old Javanese Gold. http://artgallery.yale.edu/publicati...ty-art-gallery I would love to see such a collection of suasa items from Jawa or more examples of images of suasa used on Javanese and Bali keris that can help support Rumphius' assertion that it was preferred over gold. I really cannot think of too many examples that i have actually seen of suasa on Javanese or Bali keris (that is to say my idea of suasa, since Alan has stated that the 19k rose gold in in the Balinese court keris would perhaps be called suasa by an Indonesian).

26th December 2015, 02:20 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Here is what Frey has to say on the Talismanic use of gold on keris. Like most writers on keris we all know that Frey has had his own problems with accuracy. http://tinyurl.com/pqf4vfh

26th December 2015, 06:20 PM	#6
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,456	Nice kris David! I agree about the prefered golden kinatah. And also I agree that most kerisses we know off use gold instead of suassa. But that is not what I am trying to deny here. A friend has a lovely Javanese keris with suassa pendok. Not much seen, but he has. And also I have seen a Javanese pedang lurus completely made of suassa instead of silver, which we normally see. This because they prefer silver over suassa? I don't think so. Suassa is much more rare in use somehow, and it is easy to say that because gold is more widespread that this was preferred over suassa. As I can't imagine that silver is prefered above suassa also, and only know of one pedang lurus in suassa dress and lots of them in silver dresses.... Also I have seen Palembang kerisses with ivory hilt, suassa mendak/selut and also golden fittings here and there. Why not choosen for a golden mendak/selut? Rumphius also is writing about gold in Indonesia. He writes the same you are telling, that everybody wants gold, and that they hammered it really thin to make krishilts, made from resin within and covered in a thin goldcover. Btw he seemed not to be very fond of this gold over resin, and sees it as a falsification. Rumphius also is telling a similar version which Alan is telling about the gold. "Any native wants some gold in their houses, and no family was happy without having a piece of gold in their possession." But he is referring that back in those days it allready was not that much gold available as rumors were telling. Therefore they hammered it very thin, used plating etc. because it was so precious for everybody to own. After this he is describing some gold and silver testings, and than the chapter of Suassa starts. So he also was able to compare it with gold, and still needs te urge to mention the talismanic preference of suassa over gold (which was most wanted in the native possessions).

26th December 2015, 09:05 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	In this matter under discussion, this is the situation as I understand it:- The notes that G. E. Rumphius used to produce his masterwork were gathered in the 1600's and not published until the 1700's. In this work he makes a comment based upon (at best) third or fourth hand information that infers a talismanic quality being attributed to suasa in what, at that time, was Mataram (Central Jawa). So let us assume that it was at least rumoured that at some time, in some place suasa might have had some sort of talismanic quality attributed to it. Let us further assume that during the 1600's, in Central Jawa, suasa had a talismanic value attributed to it. Personally, I have no problem at all with this, because in Jawa, talismanic values are attributed to just about everything under the sun (& moon & stars). Nothing exists or happens without having some sort of value being attributed to it by somebody. However, I do have a couple of questions in respect of the comments attributed to G.E. Rumphius:- 1) are these comments on suasa sourced from a VOC journal? 2) in what published work are the reports of metallurgical examinations of suasa, sourced from the Dutch East Indies, reported? and 3) do we know of any other historical reports that attribute talismanic qualities to suasa, in any other place in the geographic locations where suasa was produced?