Kris question to the knowledgeables

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 11:17 AM

Nechesh you say that the symbol I used for Om is modern, look again, did I use the modern symbol for Om?
Here is the Tibetan symbol for Om, slightly different in that the second character is inverted. The Tibetan symbol is certainly not modern.

Left: tibet

Mans · 14th January 2006, 02:25 PM

Very interesting thread and debate.....

But, how if the keris revealed came from the Animism and Dynamism period (because the Keris believed has the Tuah or supranatural power) before the Hindu, Budha or Islam period

Then, on the Hindu period, the keris has analyzed an given some symbols as the Ricikans which more real, beauty and has the sense...

So, Hindu, Budha and Islam period just continuing the keris cultures from the past period

.... or, the keris came from Hindu period, but with enthusiasm of Animism and Dynamism soul and pulling out the dogmatic values

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 03:12 PM

Hi Pusaka. Here's a link to the Javanese Alphabet.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/javanese.htm
Take note of the letter Dha. This alphabet dates back to the 4thC. It is certainly derivative of ancient Brahmi and so there is certainly a Vedic connection. But we have yet to find any physical evidence that the "modern" keris, with all it's present ricikan such as the Ron Dha, is older than, say, 14thC. So it seems likely that the Ron Dha was developed in Jawa at that time where regardless of Vedic influences, the Javanese language and alphabet was in full swing. Devanagari script was developed around the 11thC primarily to write Sanskrit from ancient Brahmi script. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/devanagari.htm
This early form of Devanagari was similar, but not exactly like the form with which you are familar.
As far as i know, the Ron Dha has always been related to the Javanese letter Dha in Jawa and the surrounding areas. Though there is clearly a resemblance to the symbol of the AUM i think this is probably just a very interesting coincidence, or perhaps synchonicity. I see no reason why this would be considered secret knowledge or why the Javanese would pretend this feature represented a Dha when it was really secretly the AUM. What is perhaps more occult is the intended meaning of the letter Dha in this circumstance. That might be a more valuable avenue of study.
None of this is to deny that the keris was first developed as weapon of a primarily Vedic culture. As other influences such as Islam moved into the area the keris symbolism evolved and changed. Stil, elements of Jawa's pre-vedic animistic culture persisted as well. The beliefs of the area can never be clearly defined as merely this or that. It is much more complex.

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 04:31 PM

I used a variant of Om which is not modern by any account. It is difficult to say if the markings on the keris are Sanskrit or Javanese. Remembering that the Javanese alphabet would have been influenced by Sanskrit. If you chose the Javanese then the symbols are meaningless but if you chose the Sanskrit then there is meaning in those markings. One thing for sure is that they have meaning and personally I believe it is a variant of Om, the name of god.

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

It is difficult to say if the markings on the keris are Sanskrit or Javanese. Remembering that the Javanese alphabet would have been influenced by Sanskrit. If you chose the Javanese then the symbols are meaningless but if you chose the Sanskrit then there is meaning in those markings.

Pusaka, you are certainly welcome to your personal beliefs, but the notion that this symbol is meaningless if it represents the Javanese Dha is somewhat arrogant on your behalf. Just because you are not aware of it's meaning does not imply that such meaning is nonexistent. Do you really think you have such a grasp of the Javanese culture to make such a statement?
Why do think it is difficult to say whether this "symbol" is Sanskrit or Javanese when the Javanese have been saying for centuries that it is indeed Javanese?

Pusaka · 14th January 2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Pusaka, you are certainly welcome to your personal beliefs, but the notion that this symbol is meaningless if it represents the Javanese Dha is somewhat arrogant on your behalf. Just because you are not aware of it's meaning does not imply that such meaning is nonexistent. Do you really think you have such a grasp of the Javanese culture to make such a statement?
Why do think it is difficult to say whether this "symbol" is Sanskrit or Javanese when the Javanese have been saying for centuries that it is indeed Javanese?

If the symbol is Javanese it is strange indeed that any Javanese person I asked what it meant they had no clue. There are many Javanese members in this forum and have they revealed what its meaning is? Its meaning is certainly not secret so I question why nobody seams to know the answer to what it actually means. If it is Javanese surely a Javanese person would understand it, but do they?
Using the Javanese alphabet you can account for only one letter, hardly a through explanation is it, what about the rest, can you explain that???

Kiai Carita · 14th January 2006, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

If the symbol is Javanese it is strange indeed that any Javanese person I asked what it meant they had no clue. There are many Javanese members in this forum and have they revealed what its meaning is? Its meaning is certainly not secret so I question why nobody seams to know the answer to what it actually means. If it is Javanese surely a Javanese person would understand it, but do they?
Using the Javanese alphabet you can account for only one letter, hardly a through explanation is it, what about the rest, can you explain that???

Hi Pusaka,

Remember that what Nechesh said that the ricikan on the greneng and janggut plus the kembang kacang, are relatively new in keris history. These ricikan appeared no earlier than the 12th century but more likely were created in the 14th century.

There are Jawanese explainations to these ricikan, including in Harsrinuksmo's Ensiklopedi Keris. Not everything in Jawa is explained verbally, many things are meant to be understood through rasa -feeling and intuition. However if you accuse Jawanese of not understanding a venerated object of their culture, how do you explain your credibility to explain it?

I think that Mans' explanation is the best: that keris originated in Jawa in animistic times, and through time was influenced by Vedic culture, Chinese culture, Buddhist culture, Islamic culture and Western culture. Your explanation makes sense from one angle but from another angle (like the angle used by Neches) it is flawed. I once read an explanation from the point of view of the keris as a stabbing weapon which made perfect sense untill one remembered that the keris in Jawa was not primarily a physical weapon. Also there are many types of ricikan on the janggut, kembang kacang and the greneng.

Means that what ever our opinions on keris are, they are basically only our opinions. There is to much mystery in Jawa, let alone in the most mystical object from the culture to make definite assumptions.

Keep the good work on the keris study, just don't ignore what the jawanese have to say?

Warm salams to al,
KC

nechesh · 14th January 2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

If the symbol is Javanese it is strange indeed that any Javanese person I asked what it meant they had no clue. There are many Javanese members in this forum and have they revealed what its meaning is? Its meaning is certainly not secret so I question why nobody seams to know the answer to what it actually means. If it is Javanese surely a Javanese person would understand it, but do they?
Using the Javanese alphabet you can account for only one letter, hardly a through explanation is it, what about the rest, can you explain that???

Let me make an analogy to another alphabet and culture for just a moment. In the Hebrew alphabet each letter has a specific meaning. Lets look at the letter Shin ("S" or "Sh"). The name for this letter actually means "tooth", but each letter in the Hebrew alphabet also has a numerical value, as with many other languages. The value for Shin is 300. The numerical value for the phrase Ruach Elohim (Spirit of God) is also 300, so in Qabalistic thinking Shin is equivalent. Therefore the letter Shin is also a symbol of the Spirit of God. A great deal can be represented in only one letter. I doubt the average non-orthodox Jew would be aware of this. Reformed Jews don't necessarily even learn Hebrew. Still, they consider themselves Jews and a part of that culture. So why would it be so surprising that a modern Javanese man, whose main language is Indonesian, not Javanese, who possibly doesn't even know the older language very well, who has rejected or forgotten or was never really taught the ways of the old keris culture, who possible sees it as just old superstition, would not understand the more occult meanings of the Javanese letter Dha in relation to the keris and the Ron Dha?

MABAGANI · 14th January 2006, 05:42 PM

If a keris or kris form developed during an Islamic era and region, wouldn't it be considered a Muslim creation? We can make the general statement that the keris originated in Southeast Asia with Hindu/Budhist influences, but depending on certain forms, era and place, etc. wouldn't these variables dictate the specific designation of the creation?

John · 14th January 2006, 04:33 PM

Interesting, though the "dha" shown at the link does not seem to have a pronounced tail of an OM symbol. Still it's intriguing to find a probable Javanese alphabet on such a popular icon as keris yet to be have it's meaning decoded in it's country of origin? So the mystery remains unsolved...

14th January 2006, 11:17 AM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Nechesh you say that the symbol I used for Om is modern, look again, did I use the modern symbol for Om? Here is the Tibetan symbol for Om, slightly different in that the second character is inverted. The Tibetan symbol is certainly not modern. Left: tibet Attached Images Last edited by Pusaka; 14th January 2006 at 11:39 AM.

14th January 2006, 02:25 PM	#2
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Very interesting thread and debate..... But, how if the keris revealed came from the Animism and Dynamism period (because the Keris believed has the Tuah or supranatural power) before the Hindu, Budha or Islam period Then, on the Hindu period, the keris has analyzed an given some symbols as the Ricikans which more real, beauty and has the sense... So, Hindu, Budha and Islam period just continuing the keris cultures from the past period .... or, the keris came from Hindu period, but with enthusiasm of Animism and Dynamism soul and pulling out the dogmatic values Last edited by Mans; 14th January 2006 at 02:45 PM.

14th January 2006, 04:31 PM	#4
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I used a variant of Om which is not modern by any account. It is difficult to say if the markings on the keris are Sanskrit or Javanese. Remembering that the Javanese alphabet would have been influenced by Sanskrit. If you chose the Javanese then the symbols are meaningless but if you chose the Sanskrit then there is meaning in those markings. One thing for sure is that they have meaning and personally I believe it is a variant of Om, the name of god. Attached Images

14th January 2006, 05:42 PM	#9
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	origin vs. creation If a keris or kris form developed during an Islamic era and region, wouldn't it be considered a Muslim creation? We can make the general statement that the keris originated in Southeast Asia with Hindu/Budhist influences, but depending on certain forms, era and place, etc. wouldn't these variables dictate the specific designation of the creation?

14th January 2006, 03:12 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Pusaka. Here's a link to the Javanese Alphabet. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/javanese.htm Take note of the letter Dha. This alphabet dates back to the 4thC. It is certainly derivative of ancient Brahmi and so there is certainly a Vedic connection. But we have yet to find any physical evidence that the "modern" keris, with all it's present ricikan such as the Ron Dha, is older than, say, 14thC. So it seems likely that the Ron Dha was developed in Jawa at that time where regardless of Vedic influences, the Javanese language and alphabet was in full swing. Devanagari script was developed around the 11thC primarily to write Sanskrit from ancient Brahmi script. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/devanagari.htm This early form of Devanagari was similar, but not exactly like the form with which you are familar. As far as i know, the Ron Dha has always been related to the Javanese letter Dha in Jawa and the surrounding areas. Though there is clearly a resemblance to the symbol of the AUM i think this is probably just a very interesting coincidence, or perhaps synchonicity. I see no reason why this would be considered secret knowledge or why the Javanese would pretend this feature represented a Dha when it was really secretly the AUM. What is perhaps more occult is the intended meaning of the letter Dha in this circumstance. That might be a more valuable avenue of study. None of this is to deny that the keris was first developed as weapon of a primarily Vedic culture. As other influences such as Islam moved into the area the keris symbolism evolved and changed. Stil, elements of Jawa's pre-vedic animistic culture persisted as well. The beliefs of the area can never be clearly defined as merely this or that. It is much more complex.

14th January 2006, 04:33 PM	#10
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Interesting, though the "dha" shown at the link does not seem to have a pronounced tail of an OM symbol. Still it's intriguing to find a probable Javanese alphabet on such a popular icon as keris yet to be have it's meaning decoded in it's country of origin? So the mystery remains unsolved...