Candi Sukuh carving, keris mythology

[Pusaka]

There is no aspect to kejawen or kabatinan that did not already exist in pre Islamic Indonesia, actually kejawen and kabatinan could easily exist without Islam but the opposite is not true ie the yogi techniques are generally absent from Islam and could not have came from it.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

There is no aspect to kejawen or kabatinan that did not already exist in pre Islamic Indonesia, actually kejawen and kabatinan could easily exist without Islam but the opposite is not true ie the yogi techniques are generally absent from Islam and could not have came from it.

Pusaka, i am afraid that academically this just does not bare out to be true. There is a great deal of Islamic Sufism in Kebatinan and a great many of the spiritual terms are described with Arabic words derived from those sufi practices. Again, Kebatinan is a syncretic system derived from a number of spiritual practices that were blended into a system in colonial Jawa, first within the royal courts and eventually amongst the commoners. What we know and what is practiced as Kebatinan would not exist without the Islamic influence in the mix as well. The practice of it today, while perfectly valid, probably has as much in common with the practices of pre-Islamic Java as modern Wicca does with pre-Christian Celtic paganism. Please understand that this does not mean that i do not think it a valid or useful spiritual practice. Quite the opposite actually.

[Pusaka]

David, from my point of view it is the Muslims who embraced pre Islamic internal practices in Indonesia that were Taoist and Vedic in origin. Muhammad was no yogi, you cant find these things in the quran, they are absent in arab nations which says something. The spiritual practices in Kebatinan such as meditation, concentration on energy centres (chakras), breathing exercises (pranayama) all of that is not Islamic in origin.
The goal of Kebatinan is to develop rasa, the intuitive knowing of the heart, that word Rasa is Sanskrit in origin.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

David, from my point of view it is the Muslims who embraced pre Islamic internal practices in Indonesia that were Taoist and Vedic in origin. Muhammad was no yogi, you cant find these things in the quran, they are absent in arab nations which says something. The spiritual practices in Kebatinan such as meditation, concentration on energy centres (chakras), breathing exercises (pranayama) all of that is not Islamic in origin.
The goal of Kebatinan is to develop rasa, the intuitive knowing of the heart, that word Rasa is Sanskrit in origin.

Pusaka, are you at all familiar with Sufism? Meditation and breathe control are indeed a part of the practice. It is the mystical aspects of Islam (Sufism) that is embraced in Kebabtinan, not what is practiced in mundane forms of that religion.
I do think that this side debate we are having has absolutely nothing to do with the aspects of the keris that either you or i wish to be discussing however. Why don't we turn our attention back there. Perhaps you could put forth exactly what it is you are hoping to discover through this line of inquiry around Candi Sukuh in regards to the keris.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

Pusaka, are you at all familiar with Sufism? Meditation and breathe control are indeed a part of the practice. It is the mystical aspects of Islam (Sufism) that is embraced in Kebabtinan, not what is practiced in mundane forms of that religion.
I do think that this side debate we are having has absolutely nothing to do with the aspects of the keris that either you or i wish to be discussing however. Why don't we turn our attention back there. Perhaps you could put forth exactly what it is you are hoping to discover through this line of inquiry around Candi Sukuh in regards to the keris.

Your right, so I agree to disagree on this one
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...dom%22&f=false


At the moment my main interest is to find out if this mythical empu Ramayadi was a figure in hindu mythology and if so I want to know what he is known by in Indian texts. It would appear to be so because I read he also made Krishnas chariot.

[A. G. Maisey]

Pusaka, may I enquire exactly where you read that Ramayadi made Krishna's chariot?

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pusaka, may I enquire exactly where you read that Ramayadi made Krishna's chariot?

I have been searching for the last few days trying to track down if he is a character in Hindu text, one text I came across said he made Krishna's chariot and another text said he made Vishnu's chakram disc...I'm still searching and have not pinned this down yet...but I will

[Pusaka]

Found this and thought it was quite interesting, note it starts with Empu ramayadi