Candi Sukuh carving, keris mythology

David · 20th December 2015, 09:00 PM

Pusaka, perhaps you are familiar with Niels Mulder's book Mysticism in Java. If not you might find it a very good read.
http://tinyurl.com/jlhpd6w
"Kebatinan mysticism, as we know it, is clearly the product of late colonial society as it existed in the principalities, or sultanates, of South Central Java."

Here is another account from an article in New Dawn Magazine that clearly places the development of Kebatinan in the late colonial period of Java.
"The Javanese Science is a syncretic blend of Hindu-Buddhist, Sufi, Taoist and ancient animist strands, and evolved in the royal courts of Solo and nearby Jogjakarta in Central Java as a system of self-transformation confined solely to the aristocracy. But since the Revolution that ejected the Dutch rulers from the country after the Second World War, the Science emerged into the popular culture in the form of hundreds of kebatinan (or inner-being) sects, each one of which celebrates some aspect of the royal mother tradition. These esoteric sects have drawn a very large minority of the Indonesian population into their sphere, forming an immensely creative and diverse subculture at the leading edge of national life, very much as happened in Japan after the Second World War."

Pusaka · 20th December 2015, 09:55 PM

There is no aspect to kejawen or kabatinan that did not already exist in pre Islamic Indonesia, actually kejawen and kabatinan could easily exist without Islam but the opposite is not true ie the yogi techniques are generally absent from Islam and could not have came from it.

David · 21st December 2015, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

There is no aspect to kejawen or kabatinan that did not already exist in pre Islamic Indonesia, actually kejawen and kabatinan could easily exist without Islam but the opposite is not true ie the yogi techniques are generally absent from Islam and could not have came from it.

Pusaka, i am afraid that academically this just does not bare out to be true. There is a great deal of Islamic Sufism in Kebatinan and a great many of the spiritual terms are described with Arabic words derived from those sufi practices. Again, Kebatinan is a syncretic system derived from a number of spiritual practices that were blended into a system in colonial Jawa, first within the royal courts and eventually amongst the commoners. What we know and what is practiced as Kebatinan would not exist without the Islamic influence in the mix as well. The practice of it today, while perfectly valid, probably has as much in common with the practices of pre-Islamic Java as modern Wicca does with pre-Christian Celtic paganism. Please understand that this does not mean that i do not think it a valid or useful spiritual practice. Quite the opposite actually.

Pusaka · 21st December 2015, 03:51 AM

David, from my point of view it is the Muslims who embraced pre Islamic internal practices in Indonesia that were Taoist and Vedic in origin. Muhammad was no yogi, you cant find these things in the quran, they are absent in arab nations which says something. The spiritual practices in Kebatinan such as meditation, concentration on energy centres (chakras), breathing exercises (pranayama) all of that is not Islamic in origin.
The goal of Kebatinan is to develop rasa, the intuitive knowing of the heart, that word Rasa is Sanskrit in origin.

David · 21st December 2015, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

David, from my point of view it is the Muslims who embraced pre Islamic internal practices in Indonesia that were Taoist and Vedic in origin. Muhammad was no yogi, you cant find these things in the quran, they are absent in arab nations which says something. The spiritual practices in Kebatinan such as meditation, concentration on energy centres (chakras), breathing exercises (pranayama) all of that is not Islamic in origin.
The goal of Kebatinan is to develop rasa, the intuitive knowing of the heart, that word Rasa is Sanskrit in origin.

Pusaka, are you at all familiar with Sufism? Meditation and breathe control are indeed a part of the practice. It is the mystical aspects of Islam (Sufism) that is embraced in Kebabtinan, not what is practiced in mundane forms of that religion.
I do think that this side debate we are having has absolutely nothing to do with the aspects of the keris that either you or i wish to be discussing however. Why don't we turn our attention back there. Perhaps you could put forth exactly what it is you are hoping to discover through this line of inquiry around Candi Sukuh in regards to the keris.

Pusaka · 21st December 2015, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Pusaka, are you at all familiar with Sufism? Meditation and breathe control are indeed a part of the practice. It is the mystical aspects of Islam (Sufism) that is embraced in Kebabtinan, not what is practiced in mundane forms of that religion.
I do think that this side debate we are having has absolutely nothing to do with the aspects of the keris that either you or i wish to be discussing however. Why don't we turn our attention back there. Perhaps you could put forth exactly what it is you are hoping to discover through this line of inquiry around Candi Sukuh in regards to the keris.

Your right, so I agree to disagree on this one
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...dom%22&f=false

At the moment my main interest is to find out if this mythical empu Ramayadi was a figure in hindu mythology and if so I want to know what he is known by in Indian texts. It would appear to be so because I read he also made Krishnas chariot.

A. G. Maisey · 21st December 2015, 08:25 PM

Pusaka, may I enquire exactly where you read that Ramayadi made Krishna's chariot?

Pusaka · 21st December 2015, 08:31 PM

Found this and thought it was quite interesting, note it starts with Empu ramayadi

A. G. Maisey · 20th December 2015, 10:21 PM

David, I have a fairly lengthy involvement with Candi Sukuh. My first visit was over 40 years ago, and when I live in Solo, actually in Palur, a little town out of Solo, my house is only a short drive from Sukuh. If I try to total up the actual time I have spent at Sukuh during the time I have been visiting that site, it totals to something in the neighbourhood of about 4 months' worth of 8 hour days. I've spent a lot of time at Candi Sukuh.

Everybody knows the stele shown in this thread, but what most people are not aware of is that there are a lot of other carvings there too, and those other carvings also tell a story.

Sukuh is really a bit of a mystery, and to my knowledge, the academic community is not yet in full agreement in respect of many of the matters surrounding Candi Sukuh. Even the name we give it:- 'candi' may not be accurate. Arguably, it has now assumed the status of a candi, but was it built as a candi? Very probably not.

There is now, and I feel, always has been, some misunderstandings about Sukuh. Certainly, the way in which the present generation of people in the area where it is located, have some ideas about it that vary widely from most of the academic opinions or ideas.

Back in the 1980's I did a pretty complete photographic record of Sukuh, but I've never digitised it. During my last visits in January to April this year I did another fairly complete photographic record on a digital camera. I intend to make this record available for viewing when I have processed the images.

David · 21st December 2015, 12:47 AM

Thanks Alan. I would love to see more images of the place once you have them worked up.

21st December 2015, 08:31 PM	#8
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Found this and thought it was quite interesting, note it starts with Empu ramayadi Attached Images

20th December 2015, 09:00 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Pusaka, perhaps you are familiar with Niels Mulder's book Mysticism in Java. If not you might find it a very good read. http://tinyurl.com/jlhpd6w "Kebatinan mysticism, as we know it, is clearly the product of late colonial society as it existed in the principalities, or sultanates, of South Central Java." Here is another account from an article in New Dawn Magazine that clearly places the development of Kebatinan in the late colonial period of Java. "The Javanese Science is a syncretic blend of Hindu-Buddhist, Sufi, Taoist and ancient animist strands, and evolved in the royal courts of Solo and nearby Jogjakarta in Central Java as a system of self-transformation confined solely to the aristocracy. But since the Revolution that ejected the Dutch rulers from the country after the Second World War, the Science emerged into the popular culture in the form of hundreds of kebatinan (or inner-being) sects, each one of which celebrates some aspect of the royal mother tradition. These esoteric sects have drawn a very large minority of the Indonesian population into their sphere, forming an immensely creative and diverse subculture at the leading edge of national life, very much as happened in Japan after the Second World War."

20th December 2015, 09:55 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	There is no aspect to kejawen or kabatinan that did not already exist in pre Islamic Indonesia, actually kejawen and kabatinan could easily exist without Islam but the opposite is not true ie the yogi techniques are generally absent from Islam and could not have came from it.

21st December 2015, 03:51 AM	#4
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	David, from my point of view it is the Muslims who embraced pre Islamic internal practices in Indonesia that were Taoist and Vedic in origin. Muhammad was no yogi, you cant find these things in the quran, they are absent in arab nations which says something. The spiritual practices in Kebatinan such as meditation, concentration on energy centres (chakras), breathing exercises (pranayama) all of that is not Islamic in origin. The goal of Kebatinan is to develop rasa, the intuitive knowing of the heart, that word Rasa is Sanskrit in origin.

21st December 2015, 08:25 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Pusaka, may I enquire exactly where you read that Ramayadi made Krishna's chariot?

20th December 2015, 10:21 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	David, I have a fairly lengthy involvement with Candi Sukuh. My first visit was over 40 years ago, and when I live in Solo, actually in Palur, a little town out of Solo, my house is only a short drive from Sukuh. If I try to total up the actual time I have spent at Sukuh during the time I have been visiting that site, it totals to something in the neighbourhood of about 4 months' worth of 8 hour days. I've spent a lot of time at Candi Sukuh. Everybody knows the stele shown in this thread, but what most people are not aware of is that there are a lot of other carvings there too, and those other carvings also tell a story. Sukuh is really a bit of a mystery, and to my knowledge, the academic community is not yet in full agreement in respect of many of the matters surrounding Candi Sukuh. Even the name we give it:- 'candi' may not be accurate. Arguably, it has now assumed the status of a candi, but was it built as a candi? Very probably not. There is now, and I feel, always has been, some misunderstandings about Sukuh. Certainly, the way in which the present generation of people in the area where it is located, have some ideas about it that vary widely from most of the academic opinions or ideas. Back in the 1980's I did a pretty complete photographic record of Sukuh, but I've never digitised it. During my last visits in January to April this year I did another fairly complete photographic record on a digital camera. I intend to make this record available for viewing when I have processed the images.

21st December 2015, 12:47 AM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Thanks Alan. I would love to see more images of the place once you have them worked up.