Candi Sukuh carving, keris mythology

Pusaka · 20th December 2015, 07:09 PM

However David if you knew the mythology you would know the first empu was responsible for creating not only keris but the keris was one of 15 weapons he made. Hence the reason why the smith is surrounded by the verity you observed. Secondly according to the mythology he used his fist as a hammer, his breath to blast heat the metal, his tong to quench the metal, his fingers to shape the metal and his knee as an anvil. As you will see that is all shown in that image.

Pusaka · 20th December 2015, 07:22 PM

Whilst I agree with J. O'Connor that smiting was used as an analogy of self transmutation through alchemical knowledge I disagree with the flavour he attributes to these alchemical teachings ie boozing, demonic gods (Ganesha), spirit possesion, death cult, sex orgies and dogs enveloped in hell fire.

Those things are to be avoided by those who study Ilmu, Kibatian, Kejawen

David · 20th December 2015, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Those things are to be avoided by those who study Ilmu, Kibatian, Kejawen

These are spiritual philosophies that were developed long after the period in which this temple was built. Kejawen and Kebatinan were not studied by the people of this era.

Pusaka · 20th December 2015, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

These are spiritual philosophies that were developed long after the period in which this temple was built. Kejawen and Kebatinan were not studied by the people of this era.

Then I have to disagree they were studied in that period

David · 20th December 2015, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Then I have to disagree they were studied in that period

Well you are welcome to disagree, however the practice of Kejawen could not possibly exist in Jawa before the Islamic era as it is a syncretic system that is deeply based in Islam (specifically sufi) as well as elements of animistic, Hindu and Buddhist beliefs.

Pusaka · 20th December 2015, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well you are welcome to disagree, however the practice of Kejawen could not possibly exist in Jawa before the Islamic era as it is a syncretic system that is deeply based in Islam (specifically sufi) as well as elements of animistic, Hindu and Buddhist beliefs.

It has its origins in pre Islamic Indonesia. It is a melting pot of all those ideals but clearly Islam is the most recent addition. The Javanese did not need to wait for the coming of Islam to have a scene of morality (kejawen) or meditative/yogic practices (kabatinan)

David · 20th December 2015, 09:00 PM

Pusaka, perhaps you are familiar with Niels Mulder's book Mysticism in Java. If not you might find it a very good read.
http://tinyurl.com/jlhpd6w
"Kebatinan mysticism, as we know it, is clearly the product of late colonial society as it existed in the principalities, or sultanates, of South Central Java."

Here is another account from an article in New Dawn Magazine that clearly places the development of Kebatinan in the late colonial period of Java.
"The Javanese Science is a syncretic blend of Hindu-Buddhist, Sufi, Taoist and ancient animist strands, and evolved in the royal courts of Solo and nearby Jogjakarta in Central Java as a system of self-transformation confined solely to the aristocracy. But since the Revolution that ejected the Dutch rulers from the country after the Second World War, the Science emerged into the popular culture in the form of hundreds of kebatinan (or inner-being) sects, each one of which celebrates some aspect of the royal mother tradition. These esoteric sects have drawn a very large minority of the Indonesian population into their sphere, forming an immensely creative and diverse subculture at the leading edge of national life, very much as happened in Japan after the Second World War."

Pusaka · 20th December 2015, 09:55 PM

There is no aspect to kejawen or kabatinan that did not already exist in pre Islamic Indonesia, actually kejawen and kabatinan could easily exist without Islam but the opposite is not true ie the yogi techniques are generally absent from Islam and could not have came from it.

A. G. Maisey · 20th December 2015, 10:21 PM

David, I have a fairly lengthy involvement with Candi Sukuh. My first visit was over 40 years ago, and when I live in Solo, actually in Palur, a little town out of Solo, my house is only a short drive from Sukuh. If I try to total up the actual time I have spent at Sukuh during the time I have been visiting that site, it totals to something in the neighbourhood of about 4 months' worth of 8 hour days. I've spent a lot of time at Candi Sukuh.

Everybody knows the stele shown in this thread, but what most people are not aware of is that there are a lot of other carvings there too, and those other carvings also tell a story.

Sukuh is really a bit of a mystery, and to my knowledge, the academic community is not yet in full agreement in respect of many of the matters surrounding Candi Sukuh. Even the name we give it:- 'candi' may not be accurate. Arguably, it has now assumed the status of a candi, but was it built as a candi? Very probably not.

There is now, and I feel, always has been, some misunderstandings about Sukuh. Certainly, the way in which the present generation of people in the area where it is located, have some ideas about it that vary widely from most of the academic opinions or ideas.

Back in the 1980's I did a pretty complete photographic record of Sukuh, but I've never digitised it. During my last visits in January to April this year I did another fairly complete photographic record on a digital camera. I intend to make this record available for viewing when I have processed the images.

20th December 2015, 07:09 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	However David if you knew the mythology you would know the first empu was responsible for creating not only keris but the keris was one of 15 weapons he made. Hence the reason why the smith is surrounded by the verity you observed. Secondly according to the mythology he used his fist as a hammer, his breath to blast heat the metal, his tong to quench the metal, his fingers to shape the metal and his knee as an anvil. As you will see that is all shown in that image.

20th December 2015, 07:22 PM	#2
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Whilst I agree with J. O'Connor that smiting was used as an analogy of self transmutation through alchemical knowledge I disagree with the flavour he attributes to these alchemical teachings ie boozing, demonic gods (Ganesha), spirit possesion, death cult, sex orgies and dogs enveloped in hell fire. Those things are to be avoided by those who study Ilmu, Kibatian, Kejawen

20th December 2015, 09:00 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Pusaka, perhaps you are familiar with Niels Mulder's book Mysticism in Java. If not you might find it a very good read. http://tinyurl.com/jlhpd6w "Kebatinan mysticism, as we know it, is clearly the product of late colonial society as it existed in the principalities, or sultanates, of South Central Java." Here is another account from an article in New Dawn Magazine that clearly places the development of Kebatinan in the late colonial period of Java. "The Javanese Science is a syncretic blend of Hindu-Buddhist, Sufi, Taoist and ancient animist strands, and evolved in the royal courts of Solo and nearby Jogjakarta in Central Java as a system of self-transformation confined solely to the aristocracy. But since the Revolution that ejected the Dutch rulers from the country after the Second World War, the Science emerged into the popular culture in the form of hundreds of kebatinan (or inner-being) sects, each one of which celebrates some aspect of the royal mother tradition. These esoteric sects have drawn a very large minority of the Indonesian population into their sphere, forming an immensely creative and diverse subculture at the leading edge of national life, very much as happened in Japan after the Second World War."

20th December 2015, 09:55 PM	#8
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	There is no aspect to kejawen or kabatinan that did not already exist in pre Islamic Indonesia, actually kejawen and kabatinan could easily exist without Islam but the opposite is not true ie the yogi techniques are generally absent from Islam and could not have came from it.

20th December 2015, 10:21 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	David, I have a fairly lengthy involvement with Candi Sukuh. My first visit was over 40 years ago, and when I live in Solo, actually in Palur, a little town out of Solo, my house is only a short drive from Sukuh. If I try to total up the actual time I have spent at Sukuh during the time I have been visiting that site, it totals to something in the neighbourhood of about 4 months' worth of 8 hour days. I've spent a lot of time at Candi Sukuh. Everybody knows the stele shown in this thread, but what most people are not aware of is that there are a lot of other carvings there too, and those other carvings also tell a story. Sukuh is really a bit of a mystery, and to my knowledge, the academic community is not yet in full agreement in respect of many of the matters surrounding Candi Sukuh. Even the name we give it:- 'candi' may not be accurate. Arguably, it has now assumed the status of a candi, but was it built as a candi? Very probably not. There is now, and I feel, always has been, some misunderstandings about Sukuh. Certainly, the way in which the present generation of people in the area where it is located, have some ideas about it that vary widely from most of the academic opinions or ideas. Back in the 1980's I did a pretty complete photographic record of Sukuh, but I've never digitised it. During my last visits in January to April this year I did another fairly complete photographic record on a digital camera. I intend to make this record available for viewing when I have processed the images.