Candi Sukuh carving, keris mythology

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Also is Arjuna or Bhima mentioned in the Ramayana?

No, but they are major characters in the Mahabharata, including Arjuna also a major character in the Bhagavad-Gita.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Battara

No, but they are major characters in the Mahabharata, including Arjuna also a major character in the Bhagavad-Gita.

If the images at Candi Sukuh depict the ramayan then it cant be Bhima or Ajuna because they are in the mahabharata (part of which is the Bhagavad-Gita)

[A. G. Maisey]

It is probably not wise to attempt to understand the importance of Candi Sukuh by a direct reference to any of the great Hindu epics. Candi Sukuh is very special case and deserves careful attention in its own right, if we are to come to any understanding at all of the messages that are put forward in the Candi Sukuh reliefs.

The message that is contained in the stele that is under discussion here is very probably more relevant to the renewal of souls, and the connection in Javanese thought between the esoteric powers of the pande and the cycle of birth - death - re-birth.

There are several things that must never be forgotten when we set out to try to understand Sukuh.

Firstly, it was built on the outskirts of the Majapahit kingdom.

Secondly, it was built at a time when the Majapahit kingdom was already beginning to show the signs of its eventual implosion.

Thirdly, it was built in a location that in itself carries a very special significance, one that can only be understood by a person who has some understanding of the world view of the Javanese farmer, and the farmer's relationship to Mother Earth.

Fourthly, the artistic style employed in the Sukuh carvings is more closely related to Javanese indigenous art, than to the Javanese style of the Late Classical Period in Jawa.

The fifth thing that it is essential to understand, not only in respect of the Sukuh stele that began this discussion, but in respect of any attempt to understand any Javanese monumental or other message, is that what we may think we are seeing is not necessarily what the person who originated the message intended to be seen. All Javanese messages, particularly in respect of monumental messages must be approached as a riddle that may be able to be understood by somebody with the requisite level of knowledge. This "requisite knowledge" would embrace as a bare minimum the ability to interpret that which is seen in terms of the Candra Sangkala, this by itself is not sufficient, but it is a good fundamental beginning.

A good beginning to the study of Candi Sukuh is this article:-

http://cip.cornell.edu/DPubS?service...ndo/1107006615

Stanley O'Connor does not have all the answers by any means, but he does give us some insight into the problems that are faced by anybody attempting to understand the messages of Candi Sukuh.

I've said this more times than I can remember, but it is the one basic truth in the study of the keris:-

do not attempt to understand the keris by study of the keris: you will learn nothing at all that is worthwhile

if you wish to understand the keris you must study Javanese culture and society, from that foundation you may eventually come to understand a little about the keris.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The message that is contained in the stele that is under discussion here is very probably more relevant to the renewal of souls, and the connection in Javanese thought between the esoteric powers of the pande and the cycle of birth - death - re-birth.

The five pandavas are seen by some as representing a manifestation of the five elements, the five personality types in man and the five stages of life.

Indeed some schools teach that the refining of metallic ores and the forging of the keris is an inner and outer process. Much in the same way as masons use the analogy of the construction of the temple for the building of the divine man.
The empu is simultaneously refining himself as he forges the blade in the fire. The fire and forging that removes the impurity's of the blade are also purifying his inner nature. In this School of thought then the 16 types of bumi from which a keris can be forged are simultaneously inside of you and without. The inner transmutation is Alchemical and is balanced by the outer smith work.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A good beginning to the study of Candi Sukuh is this article:-

http://cip.cornell.edu/DPubS?service...ndo/1107006615

Stanley O'Connor does not have all the answers by any means, but he does give us some insight into the problems that are faced by anybody attempting to understand the messages of Candi Sukuh.

Thanks Alan, that was a very interesting article with much food for thought. Most of us who have been studying keris for some time have, of course, seen this image of the Candi Sukuh before as it is often used to trace the origins of the keris at least back as far as we can date this temple. We can look at it and say with some confidence that the keris was an accepted part of the culture at least as early as 1437. However, most of us have not had the opportunity to actually travel to this place and for the most part it is just this one photograph that we refer to, without applying it in context to the place as a whole. Out of context we might ascribe many ideas to this scene in the smithy. As you say, Mr. O'Connor does not have all the answers, but i find his line of thought very intriguing.
One thing i am feeling more and more certain about is that this relief was not meant to depict or commemorate any divine figure instructing the first empu in the creation of the first keris. Why? Firstly what we assume to be a keris (and most probably is) does not have any central significance in the sculpture. It is in the background with other weapons and tools that are all given equal prominence. The blade that the smith is holding does not appear to be a keris to me, but is more likely a pedang of some sort. At least it does not seem to have the specific features that we recognize as a keris (asymmetric blade and gonjo). So the central message of this relief is not specifically about keris at all. The thing we all identify as a keris is merely one more object on the smith's wall of finished items.

[Pusaka]

However David if you knew the mythology you would know the first empu was responsible for creating not only keris but the keris was one of 15 weapons he made. Hence the reason why the smith is surrounded by the verity you observed. Secondly according to the mythology he used his fist as a hammer, his breath to blast heat the metal, his tong to quench the metal, his fingers to shape the metal and his knee as an anvil. As you will see that is all shown in that image.

[Pusaka]

Whilst I agree with J. O'Connor that smiting was used as an analogy of self transmutation through alchemical knowledge I disagree with the flavour he attributes to these alchemical teachings ie boozing, demonic gods (Ganesha), spirit possesion, death cult, sex orgies and dogs enveloped in hell fire.

Those things are to be avoided by those who study Ilmu, Kibatian, Kejawen

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Those things are to be avoided by those who study Ilmu, Kibatian, Kejawen

These are spiritual philosophies that were developed long after the period in which this temple was built. Kejawen and Kebatinan were not studied by the people of this era.