Rare Mughal Dagger

Shakethetrees · 29th November 2015, 08:12 PM

Enameling is a different process, where powdered glass is fused by heat to a metal or glass surface.

When heated, the ground, powdered, colored glass liquified and flows down onto the surface. One technical term it that it fluxes to the surface, and a close, intimate bond is developed, similar to a good glue.

I realize this is simplified, but, follow me here, please.

When dissimilar materials with different coefficients of expansion and sensitivity to heat and humidity are glued together, the weak link between everything is the glue. Over time and exposure to conditions relevant to the inherent weaknesses of each material losses can occur when the glue fails.

If two materials have a true molecular bond, these issues, (sensitivity to temperature, humidity, coefficients of expansion) do not come into play as the different materials are close enough to each other in these sensitivities so as not to be affected.

Examples of true molecular bonds include welds of layers of steel in blades (not crucible Damascus), and diffusion bonding of dissimilar metals as used by the Japanese in Mokume-Gane, or wood grain metal. In either case, no extra filler material or solder is added. Molecules of each layer are exchanged by high heat and an intimate contact, sometime assisted by the hammer or pressing under pressure while at temperature.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th November 2015, 10:14 PM

Shakethetrees,

Thank you very much for your explanation, which I find most interesting, although I think I am missing a few points.
It is however, quite late here, so I will write to morrow and show you a few photos of a 'looted' jade hilt that I have.

Thank you again

Jens

Battara · 30th November 2015, 12:35 AM

That is why I mentioned that I have a hard time believing that heat was not used at all.

Thus I agree with Shakethetrees on everything he said. Notice too that in the jade example pictured where all the pieces and gold was stripped, there are small holes in the grooves. These are for the pounded gold to fill and grip the gold, holding it better in place as well as the undercut grooves.

This is not too unlike what is done to inlay steel. I under cut the inlay grooves in the steel so that they may "catch" the softer metal and hold it in place (like what Shakethetrees mentioned).

Shakethetrees · 30th November 2015, 04:21 AM

Thank you Jens and Jose for your comments.

The holes drilled appear to be positioned beneath the settings. These are no more than pilot holes for larger holes to remove stock for the settings. Another smaller tool was used to shape it to accommodate the setting fully.

I don't know if the bottoms were overlaid with thin sheet gold, possibly, but the only thing holding the stones were the undercuts in the carving of the matrix.

Gold, well annealed, is extremely soft, softer by orders of magnitude than even fine silver, so it theoritically is like putty, smeared down and forced into and under the undercuts, cold.

If heat enough to affect the softness of the gold, (roughly 1000 degrees F.), the stone or ivory would be ruined.

This has piqued my interest. If I can find some time I will attempt to do a small demonstration piece and report back.

estcrh · 30th November 2015, 07:25 AM

A few more excellent examples.

Battara · 30th November 2015, 07:33 AM

Shakethetrees, you bring up some points I haven't thought of. And I forgot about the heat effecting the stones. In fact it would change the color of the stones at the very least. Also not aware of the holes being drill holes to take out the stones and inlay.

If you could experiment and show the results that would be great. I still am a little hazy about the the process.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th November 2015, 12:42 PM

I too was wondering how much heat a jade hilt could take.
Here are the two pictures. It is clear that the hilt has been striped for gold and gems, and it is also clear that the gems were replaced with glass/crystal, and the gold with lead(?) covered with a thin gold foil.

ariel · 4th December 2015, 02:35 AM

Jens,
Sorry for my mistake: the original photo was not very detailed. This was NOT a Marvari horse, this was indeed Nilgai.

30th November 2015, 07:25 AM	#5
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	A few more excellent examples. Attached Images

30th November 2015, 12:42 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I too was wondering how much heat a jade hilt could take. Here are the two pictures. It is clear that the hilt has been striped for gold and gems, and it is also clear that the gems were replaced with glass/crystal, and the gold with lead(?) covered with a thin gold foil. Attached Images

29th November 2015, 08:12 PM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Enameling is a different process, where powdered glass is fused by heat to a metal or glass surface. When heated, the ground, powdered, colored glass liquified and flows down onto the surface. One technical term it that it fluxes to the surface, and a close, intimate bond is developed, similar to a good glue. I realize this is simplified, but, follow me here, please. When dissimilar materials with different coefficients of expansion and sensitivity to heat and humidity are glued together, the weak link between everything is the glue. Over time and exposure to conditions relevant to the inherent weaknesses of each material losses can occur when the glue fails. If two materials have a true molecular bond, these issues, (sensitivity to temperature, humidity, coefficients of expansion) do not come into play as the different materials are close enough to each other in these sensitivities so as not to be affected. Examples of true molecular bonds include welds of layers of steel in blades (not crucible Damascus), and diffusion bonding of dissimilar metals as used by the Japanese in Mokume-Gane, or wood grain metal. In either case, no extra filler material or solder is added. Molecules of each layer are exchanged by high heat and an intimate contact, sometime assisted by the hammer or pressing under pressure while at temperature.

29th November 2015, 10:14 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Shakethetrees, Thank you very much for your explanation, which I find most interesting, although I think I am missing a few points. It is however, quite late here, so I will write to morrow and show you a few photos of a 'looted' jade hilt that I have. Thank you again Jens

30th November 2015, 12:35 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	That is why I mentioned that I have a hard time believing that heat was not used at all. Thus I agree with Shakethetrees on everything he said. Notice too that in the jade example pictured where all the pieces and gold was stripped, there are small holes in the grooves. These are for the pounded gold to fill and grip the gold, holding it better in place as well as the undercut grooves. This is not too unlike what is done to inlay steel. I under cut the inlay grooves in the steel so that they may "catch" the softer metal and hold it in place (like what Shakethetrees mentioned).

30th November 2015, 04:21 AM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Thank you Jens and Jose for your comments. The holes drilled appear to be positioned beneath the settings. These are no more than pilot holes for larger holes to remove stock for the settings. Another smaller tool was used to shape it to accommodate the setting fully. I don't know if the bottoms were overlaid with thin sheet gold, possibly, but the only thing holding the stones were the undercuts in the carving of the matrix. Gold, well annealed, is extremely soft, softer by orders of magnitude than even fine silver, so it theoritically is like putty, smeared down and forced into and under the undercuts, cold. If heat enough to affect the softness of the gold, (roughly 1000 degrees F.), the stone or ivory would be ruined. This has piqued my interest. If I can find some time I will attempt to do a small demonstration piece and report back.

30th November 2015, 07:33 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Shakethetrees, you bring up some points I haven't thought of. And I forgot about the heat effecting the stones. In fact it would change the color of the stones at the very least. Also not aware of the holes being drill holes to take out the stones and inlay. If you could experiment and show the results that would be great. I still am a little hazy about the the process.

4th December 2015, 02:35 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, Sorry for my mistake: the original photo was not very detailed. This was NOT a Marvari horse, this was indeed Nilgai.