OTTOMAN....What do we mean?

kahnjar1 · 24th November 2015, 06:49 PM

I also agree with Manu, but the key to what I was trying to clarify lies in his last paragraph.
We can not IMHO simply classify EVERYTHING which comes from the area of the old Ottoman Empire as Ottoman, if the question is being asked as to ORIGIN......in other words "Where is this FROM"
Stu

ariel · 25th November 2015, 01:50 AM

In many cases, the only answer would be" Somewhere in the Ottoman Empire, but where exactly, - I have no bloody idea. Sorry.....":-)

But do not despair: only 15 or so years ago we had vicious and unproductive battles on the origin of ( what became clear later) Laz Bichaq:-)
And only 5 years ago or so, we had no idea that the unusually long and simple yataghans with a T-handle were Zeibek.

In another 50 or so years we shall confidently distinguish yataghans from Ioannina from those of Plovdiv manufacture. Then we shall start working on kilijes:-)))

rickystl · 26th November 2015, 04:32 PM

Hi Stu.
Well. Now look what you've done. You've opened up a can of worms. And Indo-Persian would probably be a two cans of worms. LOL!!

Seriously, good question. And thanks to all that posted. The responses above to your original question are all much better than I can produce. Great Thread and interesting reading.
Rick.

kahnjar1 · 26th November 2015, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.
Well. Now look what you've done. You've opened up a can of worms. And Indo-Persian would probably be a two cans of worms. LOL!!

Seriously, good question. And thanks to all that posted. The responses above to your original question are all much better than I can produce. Great Thread and interesting reading.
Rick.

Thanks Rick

ariel · 27th November 2015, 02:16 PM

The confusion about this term is not unique.
After all, Ottoman implies Turkish Royal dynasty. It was in control for ~ 700 years and ruled over tribes of different ethnic and geographical origins.

In this sense it is not much different from our usage of Qajar swords, Ming vases or Tzarist Russian Shashkas. All objects from these groups could have been made in different times and different localities. Napoleonic swords are even more ambiguous: we imply era, but lump together French, German and British swords. Luckily, for them we have readable inscriptions and well-known patterns; those are as a rule unavailable on Ottoman weapons.

To sum up, we use the term "Ottoman" not because it is the best one, but simply because there is no more precise attribution.

Sancar · 27th November 2015, 03:57 PM

It is not that confusing actually. Do you have any confusion about using the term "Roman"? Then you shouldn't have any confusion about using the term "Ottoman".

That is the short answer. But if you want the long one... Well it is quite long. Long enough to fill a library actually. There are tons and tons of books written in every language in the world that explains in detail what exactly Ottoman culture and art is, with its own origins, disciplines, styles, evolution and whatnot. Architecture is a part of it, as well as music, literature and plastic arts, so is the arms and armour. I advice anyone interested to read one.

Kubur · 27th November 2015, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sancar

It is not that confusing actually. Do you have any confusion about using the term "Roman"? Then you shouldn't have any confusion about using the term "Ottoman".

That is the short answer. But if you want the long one... Well it is quite long. Long enough to fill a library actually. There are tons and tons of books written in every language in the world that explains in detail what exactly Ottoman culture and art is, with its own origins, disciplines, styles, evolution and whatnot. Architecture is a part of it, as well as music, literature and plastic arts, so is the arms and armour. I advice anyone interested to read one.

I totally agree my Ottoman friend

Kubur

Kubur · 27th November 2015, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The confusion about this term is not unique.
After all, Ottoman implies Turkish Royal dynasty. It was in control for ~ 700 years and ruled over tribes of different ethnic and geographical origins.

In this sense it is not much different from our usage of Qajar swords, Ming vases or Tzarist Russian Shashkas. All objects from these groups could have been made in different times and different localities. Napoleonic swords are even more ambiguous: we imply era, but lump together French, German and British swords. Luckily, for them we have readable inscriptions and well-known patterns; those are as a rule unavailable on Ottoman weapons.

To sum up, we use the term "Ottoman" not because it is the best one, but simply because there is no more precise attribution.

I agree also and to sum up:
Is it the chicken who invented the egg or the egg who invented the chicken?

estcrh · 27th November 2015, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu.
Well. Now look what you've done. You've opened up a can of worms. And Indo-Persian would probably be a two cans of worms. LOL!!

"Indo-Persian" just takes all of the other umbrella terms such as "Ottoman", "Middle Eastern", "Oriental", Islamic", "Indian", "Persian", "Iranian" etc and puts them into one large umbrella category. I can remember a few years back when you still could barely find images of common arms and armor, let alone rare types, now there is a varitable buffet of images to see (and learn from), just a few search terms finds the majority of them...how nice!!

Indo-Persian weapons.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Indo...w=1918&bih=995

Indo-Persian armor.
https://www.google.com/search?q=indo...w=1918&bih=995

24th November 2015, 06:49 PM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	I also agree with Manu, but the key to what I was trying to clarify lies in his last paragraph. We can not IMHO simply classify EVERYTHING which comes from the area of the old Ottoman Empire as Ottoman, if the question is being asked as to ORIGIN......in other words "Where is this FROM" Stu

25th November 2015, 01:50 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In many cases, the only answer would be" Somewhere in the Ottoman Empire, but where exactly, - I have no bloody idea. Sorry.....":-) But do not despair: only 15 or so years ago we had vicious and unproductive battles on the origin of ( what became clear later) Laz Bichaq:-) And only 5 years ago or so, we had no idea that the unusually long and simple yataghans with a T-handle were Zeibek. In another 50 or so years we shall confidently distinguish yataghans from Ioannina from those of Plovdiv manufacture. Then we shall start working on kilijes:-)))

26th November 2015, 04:32 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Stu. Well. Now look what you've done. You've opened up a can of worms. And Indo-Persian would probably be a two cans of worms. LOL!! Seriously, good question. And thanks to all that posted. The responses above to your original question are all much better than I can produce. Great Thread and interesting reading. Rick.

27th November 2015, 02:16 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The confusion about this term is not unique. After all, Ottoman implies Turkish Royal dynasty. It was in control for ~ 700 years and ruled over tribes of different ethnic and geographical origins. In this sense it is not much different from our usage of Qajar swords, Ming vases or Tzarist Russian Shashkas. All objects from these groups could have been made in different times and different localities. Napoleonic swords are even more ambiguous: we imply era, but lump together French, German and British swords. Luckily, for them we have readable inscriptions and well-known patterns; those are as a rule unavailable on Ottoman weapons. To sum up, we use the term "Ottoman" not because it is the best one, but simply because there is no more precise attribution.

27th November 2015, 03:57 PM	#6
Sancar Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 79	It is not that confusing actually. Do you have any confusion about using the term "Roman"? Then you shouldn't have any confusion about using the term "Ottoman". That is the short answer. But if you want the long one... Well it is quite long. Long enough to fill a library actually. There are tons and tons of books written in every language in the world that explains in detail what exactly Ottoman culture and art is, with its own origins, disciplines, styles, evolution and whatnot. Architecture is a part of it, as well as music, literature and plastic arts, so is the arms and armour. I advice anyone interested to read one.