Interesting Saif with Provenance for Sharing

[A.alnakkas]

Hello All,

I recently acquired this saif. Its one of my finer examples, with fittings made of gold, and with a chape made from a layer of silver under a layer of gold. Its in traditional style, an early 20th century sword, likely commissioned by the Saudi government rather than a pre-Saudi saif.

The blade is interesting, at a glimpse it looks European but I have a 'feeling' that its not. It simply does not feel (yes feel) like any of the European blades in my collection. Unless someone here can recognize the pattern?

This sword was gifted by the Saudi government to Wilton Persons, the white house chief of staff during the presidency of Dwight D. Eisenhower. These are not made to be gifted, rather made for use in the Saudi government at that era, and these are mainly carried by the royal guard seen in many photos. Although such examples are older than the formation of the Saudi state, this one as mentioned before, is likely made during the early years of Saud rule.

Sorry about the poor quality photos. Taken by cell phone.

[Kubur]

Hi,
Very nice Arabian sayf! For me, your blade is French or German, very late 18th or first part of the 19th c. Do you have some marks on the blade?
Best,
Kubur

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Kubur,

There are no marks on the blade. Though this means little as Saudis often polish blades until its bright, removing etchings and marks in the process.

I thought German first, but are German blades made very stiff? I had German blades in this shape and different shapes as well, never this stiff!

[Kubur]

I have an early Napoleonic blade almost like yours. But I don't know if the French continued to produce this kind of blade during the 19th c. ...

[A.alnakkas]

Can I see the sabre, Kubur?

Check this post, I have posted a saif in it with a Persian blade that has 'European' features.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18436

[Kubur]

It's not a nice photo, but better than nothing. If it's really an early French sword, then I know exactly how the blade went to SA.
Best,
Kubur

[A.alnakkas]

thats a nice sabre! I actually had a saif with such a french blade.. had some Arabic script on the spine with Sun and Moon motifs on the blade... It was European likely used in an ottoman sword, then it was dressed in Arabian style. Was very different from this one though, wider and more flexible and also different fullering.

[Jim McDougall]

To me the hollow ground sabre blade in this example (which looks very much like the examples seen in Elgood's 'Arabian Arms & Armour) seems very 'Solingen'. It does seem like an early 19th century hussars blade, and these seem to have been very prevalent in trade circumstances throughout Red Sea and North African trade in Egypt. The Arabian presence in Aden of course along with the Condominium in Anglo-Egyptian Sudan also may have accounted for German (as well as French) blades in the opening years of 20th c.

The French sabre shown illustrates the much wider fullering seen on these Klingenthal type blades.

Kubur, interesting comment on the possible entry of French blade into Arabia, and while my allusion to the French presence in North Africa mentions the condominium, obviously the profound presence in Saharan regions throughout the 19th c. is another possibility. I'd like to know more on that, can you elaborate?

Either way, I feel pretty certain the blade here is European, and probably earlier 19th c. Very nice sa'if.
But I am curious......Lofty, you say these were not to be 'gifted'. I have always been under the impression that sa'if were indeed a highly honored gift diplomatically, and especially in these early years of our alliance with Saudi Arabia.
Best regards,
Jim

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Jim,

These are made for use by the Saudi Government (and other states, now existing or gone.) some of the uses for this swords is well, as a weapon. The rest being for the ardha, executions and gifting.

I mentioned specifically that its not made FOR gifting only to show that these swords had a context in which it was used.

[RSWORD]

The sword looks much better than the auction pictures. Looked like it had bad rusting or was even in a fire. Did you restore or clean up this sword? If so, it turned out much better than expected given what was shown at auction.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

The sword looks much better than the auction pictures. Looked like it had bad rusting or was even in a fire. Did you restore or clean up this sword? If so, it turned out much better than expected given what was shown at auction.

Hey Rick,

Yes, and I got it relatively cheap for what it is. The mounts were heavily smoked... so likely it was displayed over a fire place.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Jim,

These are made for use by the Saudi Government (and other states, now existing or gone.) some of the uses for this swords is well, as a weapon. The rest being for the ardha, executions and gifting.

I mentioned specifically that its not made FOR gifting only to show that these swords had a context in which it was used.

Thanks for clarification Lofty. I guess I misinterpreted what you meant by these were not made FOR gifting......but it was OK to gift them. That makes sense that they were for actual use as accoutrement or in other required purposes
I also misunderstood the notes pertaining to the blade, I thought you were saying you had a feeling it was not European. I am curious about what other sources of this form blade might be.
Thanks,
Jim

[Kubur]

Hi Jim,
I think like you that this blade is early 19th c. or very late 18th c.
If the blade is not a mid or late 19th c. then I do not think that the blade entered the Red Sea by the South. And I do not think that's a colonial blade or a trade blade. Lotfy, I would like to think that your blade cames from Quseir. During the French expedition, the Egyptian port of Quseir was occupied by the Napoleonic army. Quseir was one of the major ottoman harbour on the Red Sea, directly in contact with Jeddah, for trade and pilgrimage. I guess some members will say that I'm crazy or a dreamer, but it's not impossible for me...

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Kubur for your response and for the most interesting explanation regarding the French possibilities. Very well explained, and while I am familiar with the Napoleonic expeditions I had known the detail about this port. Very well reasoned and certainly a plausible source as you note for French blades.
I still sense this as a Solingen blade and most probably of early 19th c. and at this point do not think it is French. As you know French blades of these times were usually inscribed on the blade spine, which would not have been removed by constant polishing in Arabian practice.

It is an interesting conundrum and I look forward to other thoughts and observations as always.

Best regards,
Jim

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Jim,

Indians and Yemenis copied European designs and often the flex is different on their swords. Also, I owned a Qajar blade with such features.

[A.alnakkas]

This is another saif in my collection with a blade that seemed European at first but its actually wootz.

[A.alnakkas]

Well, I facepalmed that I at some point, thought this is not a European blade. A friend just found a small proof mark on the blade, has a crown and a G under it.. Will try to photograph it

[A.alnakkas]

Anyone have any idea about the origin of this proof mark?

[Pukka Bundook]

That mark reminds me very much of the Swedish mark, seen on arms made by Carl Gustav.

Richard.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

That mark reminds me very much of the Swedish mark, seen on arms made by Carl Gustav.

Richard.

Hey Richard,

Any examples?

[Richard G]

Lotfy,
The mark also resembles (and I mean resembles) an Englsh government inspectors mark. These were a mark of quality control applied to arms intended for British goverment use. They are frequenly found on the well known " Khyber" copies of EIC firearms that still fool an awful lot of people. I have not, as far as I can remember, seen them on any "Khyber" blades, but they do appear on British military issue swords of the mid 19th Cent. and later. I have a nimcha type saif which has a blade in European style but which shows signs of a mechanical watering which in my opinion is almost unheard of in a European blade.
I suggest it is a possibilty that your blade is Indian or Pakistani made, in a European style, and with a spurios stamp, to give it a bit of extra clout. As far as I am aware many of these copies were contemporary with the original.
Regards
Richard

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Lotfy,
The mark also resembles (and I mean resembles) an Englsh government inspectors mark. These were a mark of quality control applied to arms intended for British goverment use. They are frequenly found on the well known " Khyber" copies of EIC firearms that still fool an awful lot of people. I have not, as far as I can remember, seen them on any "Khyber" blades, but they do appear on British military issue swords of the mid 19th Cent. and later. I have a nimcha type saif which has a blade in European style but which shows signs of a mechanical watering which in my opinion is almost unheard of in a European blade.
I suggest it is a possibilty that your blade is Indian or Pakistani made, in a European style, and with a spurios stamp, to give it a bit of extra clout. As far as I am aware many of these copies were contemporary with the original.
Regards
Richard

That is quite a possibility. The mounts are Saudi government issued, during the later period of king AbdulAziz or certainly during the reign of King Saud.

The blade is of good quality, and the finish is great. It could be added later but there was no shortage of British blades in the region. I guess a comparative example would be nice.