OTTOMAN....What do we mean?

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by estcrh

To me, the term when applied to armor or weapons simply means that it originated from within the confines of the Ottoman Empire. That is quite a wide area and time period, not much different than describing an item as "European". From there you would have to narrow it down to a more specific area and time period, which sometimes can be quite difficult.

Exactly my point......Usually when a Member asks for origin, he or she is looking to find out the ORIGIN of an item, in other words,where it ACTUALLY comes from......
"Ottoman" simply (as you say) means it came from some part of the Ottoman Empire within some time period that the Empire existed. It really does not tell us much does it?
Stu

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Exactly my point......Usually when a Member asks for origin, he or she is looking to find out the ORIGIN of an item, in other words,where it ACTUALLY comes from......
"Ottoman" simply (as you say) means it came from some part of the Ottoman Empire within some time period that the Empire existed. It really does not tell us much does it?
Stu

Stu, I cant wait until we discuss the term "Indo-Persian"!!!

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Stu, I cant wait until we discuss the term "Indo-Persian"!!!

Me either, but another thread would be better for that. It's just that "Ottoman" seems to be the current buzz word for describing almost anything which is of questioned (not questionable) origin.

[harrywagner]

Slightly off topic, but if you have not already read "The fall of the Ottomans" by Eugene Rogan, I recommend it.

[ariel]

Turkish weapons made enormous impact on other Ottoman weapon centers. This is why it is so difficult to pinpoint the exact location of the manufacturer.
Yataghan is an example.
We can be certain only about two subtypes: Zeibek and Laz Bichaq.
Less certain are the North African, Cretan and Focan.
But we cannot distinguish between the Anatolian proper and the Balkan/ Greek/ Bulgarian. Out of necessity we call them Ottoman.

Also, yataghan blades were made. Largely in Turkey and the Balkans; from there they went across the Empire. How should we define examples: by the blade or by the handle/decorations? Again, "Ottoman" is the safest bet.

Somehow, daggers are easier to pinpoint: they must have been less regimented

[DaveA]

Often the regional variations on a common design theme are the most fascinating aspects to me. Saying "Ottoman" merely gives me a set of design themes (e.g., "yataghan") and historical period. Useful, but insufficient IMHO. Indo-Persian was mentioned as a similar challenge. I also think that some ethnic groups that extend across current geopolitical boundaries engender similar questions about the actual location of origin (for example, the Shan of Myanmar/Thailand/China/Laos).

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Gentlemen.
ARIEL....I agree with what you say, but the term Ottoman does not indicate to an UNinformed collector, where any particular weapon might come from. What I was trying to get at with my thread was the general use of the term. As an example, if I had a Yataghan and wanted to know where it came from (without tying it down to the last mile), I would find "Turkey/Balkans" far more informative than just "Ottoman".

DAVEA......Todays geographical boundries do not necessarily give the ACTUAL origin of a piece either as they have changed dramatically over time. A good example of this would be Saudi Arabia which did not even exist as a country until the 1930s, but we see items described as Saudi.
You mention Shan in terms of Myanmar etc. This is a bit different as we are talking TRIBAL here rather than an actual country. Other examples of this would be Tuareg and Berber.
Stu