Javanese Keris?

Jean · 17th November 2015, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Jean, while i have often seen people refer to holes worn through sogokan by excessive access washing i do have to wonder if this was the original intention of the term combong (or complong). I have seen blades where such an opening is obviously the intention of the smith and have to wonder if people calling these worn out blades "combong" is just a way of adding special interest where none should really exist.

Hi David,
I don't know and frankly I have not a very strong interest in these blades

If you search "keris combong" on Google you will find many pics of combong blades in the 3 categories (wear, welding flaw, and intentional). There is for instance a "special kamardikan keris" with an obviously intentional combong.
BTW Dr Google does not seem to recognize the term complong and I must say that I never heard it.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 17th November 2015, 07:47 PM

Oh David!!!!

You doubter!!!!

Goodness,gracious me!

A. G. Maisey · 17th November 2015, 08:18 PM

Jean, in reading, or listening to Javanese, there is a problem that I doubt exists in most --- maybe all --- other languages.

Words change form in both sound and spelling and still mean the same thing.

Linguists refer to Javanese as a "non-standard language", I'm not quite sure exactly what the academics mean by this, but my experience tells me that the only way to understand Javanese is to let go of preconceptions regarding sounds and spelling and try to grasp the overall context. In conversation you need to be reading body language as carefully as you are listening to words.

The word "complong" means simply a hole, or a gap, or an opening, its use is not only in respect of keris.

This word "complong" could be rendered by any other combination of the vowels and consonants used in construction of the original word, provided that it sounded reasonably similar, or if in conversation the other party was totally tuned into the conversation, under which circumstances it could well become something like "conpongipun", or "kekerconipun", or some other invention of the speaker. Clever native speakers of Javanese paint with words and in exchanges with close friends or family do not always stick with recognised forms.

If we consider the word "keris", in friendly conversation this will sometimes become "keferis", which in turn can have "ipun" added to it = "keferisipun".

Just to clarify:- I do not speak nor understand Javanese sufficiently well to always be able to recognise the Javanese use of language I have described above, I am repeating what I have been told by Javanese native speakers.

You possibly know of "Cockney rhyming slang" ? "noah's ark" = "shark", "trouble & strife" = "wife" and so on.

Its a similar sort of thing with spoken, non-formal, Javanese.

The words "complong" and "combong" both mean "hole".

Both words can have a number of completely different meanings and forms, depending on context.

Neither word, in any of their forms, refers uniquely to keris.

David · 17th November 2015, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Oh David!!!!

You doubter!!!!

Goodness,gracious me!

Alan, you can just call me Thomas...

Jean, i don't really have that much interest in keris with holes eroded through the sogokan or for that matter keris with forging flaws which are then exaggerated to appear intentional. I am, however, very interested in keris with more of a mystical nature and i am indeed interested in keris where a combong has been placed in the blade by the smith with purpose and intention. That is why i am trying to make the distinction.
I suppose that given the literal translation of the word combong/complong as "hole" that any hole in a keris can legitimately be named as such. However, i am aware of the lore which assigns a specific mystical nature to such holes and what i am questioning is whether that mystical assignment began with intentional openings in the blade or whether it is also valid for these worn-through examples. It does seem to me that the worn-through variety receive such attention simply to increase the desirability of an otherwise worn out blade. But i am not claiming to know the answer here, only question it.

17th November 2015, 07:47 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Oh David!!!! You doubter!!!! Goodness,gracious me!

17th November 2015, 08:18 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Jean, in reading, or listening to Javanese, there is a problem that I doubt exists in most --- maybe all --- other languages. Words change form in both sound and spelling and still mean the same thing. Linguists refer to Javanese as a "non-standard language", I'm not quite sure exactly what the academics mean by this, but my experience tells me that the only way to understand Javanese is to let go of preconceptions regarding sounds and spelling and try to grasp the overall context. In conversation you need to be reading body language as carefully as you are listening to words. The word "complong" means simply a hole, or a gap, or an opening, its use is not only in respect of keris. This word "complong" could be rendered by any other combination of the vowels and consonants used in construction of the original word, provided that it sounded reasonably similar, or if in conversation the other party was totally tuned into the conversation, under which circumstances it could well become something like "conpongipun", or "kekerconipun", or some other invention of the speaker. Clever native speakers of Javanese paint with words and in exchanges with close friends or family do not always stick with recognised forms. If we consider the word "keris", in friendly conversation this will sometimes become "keferis", which in turn can have "ipun" added to it = "keferisipun". Just to clarify:- I do not speak nor understand Javanese sufficiently well to always be able to recognise the Javanese use of language I have described above, I am repeating what I have been told by Javanese native speakers. You possibly know of "Cockney rhyming slang" ? "noah's ark" = "shark", "trouble & strife" = "wife" and so on. Its a similar sort of thing with spoken, non-formal, Javanese. The words "complong" and "combong" both mean "hole". Both words can have a number of completely different meanings and forms, depending on context. Neither word, in any of their forms, refers uniquely to keris.