Javanese Keris?

A. G. Maisey · 14th November 2015, 01:30 AM

The description of this keris given by the seller is not quite accurate.

The blade is 13 luk, pamor is adeg in the body of the blade, and probably what we can call a "flame" pamor in the base ( I can give a Javanese name for this, but I will need to spend more time on analysis of this little patch of pamor in the sorsoran). It is probably a 20th century blade, but I cannot be certain of this from photos, no matter how good.

The wrongko (warangka, scabbard) is Solo (Surakarta) gayaman, which is the informal, everyday style, the wood can probably be classified as kayu pelet, it might be timoho, but I cannot tell from a photo. The pendok (metal scabbard cover) is bunton style, the photos are not good enough for me to identify the embossed motif, but it is most likely lung-lungan ( twining vines and foliage).

The jejeran (ukiran, hilt) is a Madurese style, depicting a serpent, it would be legitimate to describe this as a jejeran with naga motif. The mendak (hilt ring between hilt and blade) is a Central Javanese kendit set with pastes.

The only thing wrong with this keris is the hilt, it is totally out of place, it should be taken off the keris and displayed separately as a miniature sculpture. This existing hilt should be replaced with a Solo planar style of hilt, preferably a yudowinatan model.

Do this and you will have an absolutely correct Solo gayaman keris that could be used for wear on most occasions. It is a recent keris, but most definitely not "tourist", or "wall hanger". It is the real deal, but get rid of that hilt, it does not belong.

Jean · 14th November 2015, 09:49 AM

According to the EK and the Pamoratlas this pamor pattern with a triangular motif at the base and pamor Adeg above it is called Junjung Darajat and said to originate from Madura or East Java. Personally I am not convinced that the void in the middle of the blade is intentional.
Regards

harrywagner · 14th November 2015, 12:04 PM

Thanks A.G. and Jean. The seller bought the hilt separately, and it is a replacement. The original hilt, not pictured, is rather plain and also wood. It looks similar to the hilt I have seen on many Keris. I will post a photo as soon as time allows. Thanks again.

Harry

David · 14th November 2015, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

The seller bought the hilt separately, and it is a replacement. The original hilt, not pictured, is rather plain and also wood. It looks similar to the hilt I have seen on many Keris.

Sometimes "plain" is better Harry simply because it is more correct. These fancier naga hilts are not only recent carvings, they are newly imagined forms that are a bit untraditional. Doesn't mean they are unattractive necessarily or should not be collected as the tiny sculptures that they are. But Alan is quite correct that this hilt doesn't belong on this keris. Something like this would be far more suitable for this keris.

harrywagner · 14th November 2015, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sometimes "plain" is better Harry simply because it is more correct. These fancier naga hilts are not only recent carvings, they are newly imagined forms that are a bit untraditional. Doesn't mean they are unattractive necessarily or should not be collected as the tiny sculptures that they are. But Alan is quite correct that this hilt doesn't belong on this keris. Something like this would be far more suitable for this keris.

Thanks David. The original hilt looks almost exactly like the one in your photo.

harrywagner · 14th November 2015, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

According to the EK and the Pamoratlas this pamor pattern with a triangular motif at the base and pamor Adeg above it is called Junjung Darajat and said to originate from Madura or East Java. Personally I am not convinced that the void in the middle of the blade is intentional.
Regards

Hi Jean,
I'm not sure either. The seller thought it was. I'll post some close-ups as soon as time allows. Thanks for the info!

A. G. Maisey · 14th November 2015, 09:40 PM

The blade is Madura or East Jawa, most likely Madura, but even so, the pamor in the sorsoran has several possibilities, and at the moment I cannot see it clearly enough to be too positive about what I'm looking at, I'm not at home right now and I'm using a very small, very cheap notebook.

The blade crack probably started as a cold shut --- a welding flaw --- but would then have been preserved and refined to make it into a magically charged complong that will capture beautiful women and late model Maseratis for you, simply by looking through the crack at them and wishing.

harrywagner · 16th November 2015, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

According to the EK and the Pamoratlas this pamor pattern with a triangular motif at the base and pamor Adeg above it is called Junjung Darajat and said to originate from Madura or East Java. Personally I am not convinced that the void in the middle of the blade is intentional.
Regards

Hi Jean,
Here are some close-ups of the blade. The seller thought the split was intentional. I think it adds interest to the knife, so if it was an accident, it was a fortunate one!

Harry

Jean · 17th November 2015, 09:11 AM

Hello Harry,
Thanks for the pics, I maintain my opinion that the split is accidental but if you like it, that's OK!

I attach the pic of a typical blade with combong, as you can see the void in the blade is due to the wear of the grooves in the sogokan.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 17th November 2015, 11:00 AM

I agree with you Jean:- is is accidental, but it did not look like it does now directly after the weld failed. It started as a cold shut, an accident, but it was preserved and improved into a magical blade feature.

The thinking is:- this was given to us by God, who are we to refuse it? no, I won't try to get the weld to take, I will accept God's gift and enhance it.

David · 17th November 2015, 04:08 PM

Jean, while i have often seen people refer to holes worn through sogokan by excessive access washing i do have to wonder if this was the original intention of the term combong (or complong). I have seen blades where such an opening is obviously the intention of the smith and have to wonder if people calling these worn out blades "combong" is just a way of adding special interest where none should really exist.

Jean · 17th November 2015, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Jean, while i have often seen people refer to holes worn through sogokan by excessive access washing i do have to wonder if this was the original intention of the term combong (or complong). I have seen blades where such an opening is obviously the intention of the smith and have to wonder if people calling these worn out blades "combong" is just a way of adding special interest where none should really exist.

Hi David,
I don't know and frankly I have not a very strong interest in these blades

If you search "keris combong" on Google you will find many pics of combong blades in the 3 categories (wear, welding flaw, and intentional). There is for instance a "special kamardikan keris" with an obviously intentional combong.
BTW Dr Google does not seem to recognize the term complong and I must say that I never heard it.
Regards

harrywagner · 14th November 2015, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The description of this keris given by the seller is not quite accurate.

The blade is 13 luk, pamor is adeg in the body of the blade, and probably what we can call a "flame" pamor in the base ( I can give a Javanese name for this, but I will need to spend more time on analysis of this little patch of pamor in the sorsoran). It is probably a 20th century blade, but I cannot be certain of this from photos, no matter how good.

The wrongko (warangka, scabbard) is Solo (Surakarta) gayaman, which is the informal, everyday style, the wood can probably be classified as kayu pelet, it might be timoho, but I cannot tell from a photo. The pendok (metal scabbard cover) is bunton style, the photos are not good enough for me to identify the embossed motif, but it is most likely lung-lungan ( twining vines and foliage).

The jejeran (ukiran, hilt) is a Madurese style, depicting a serpent, it would be legitimate to describe this as a jejeran with naga motif. The mendak (hilt ring between hilt and blade) is a Central Javanese kendit set with pastes.

The only thing wrong with this keris is the hilt, it is totally out of place, it should be taken off the keris and displayed separately as a miniature sculpture. This existing hilt should be replaced with a Solo planar style of hilt, preferably a yudowinatan model.

Do this and you will have an absolutely correct Solo gayaman keris that could be used for wear on most occasions. It is a recent keris, but most definitely not "tourist", or "wall hanger". It is the real deal, but get rid of that hilt, it does not belong.

Many thanks for this incredible information. This is very generous of you. I could not be more surprised by your last paragraph! I have a modest collection, but of the knives I do have I was sure this one was a display or tourist item. I am very happy to know otherwise. I am not a purist though so a tourist item or display piece would not be out of place in my collection, but it is still nice knowing it is not.

I bought two Keris from this seller. He has never let me down. I had not planned on posting photos of the other one, but am re-thinking that. I was certain it was a display piece. Now I am not so sure.

Thanks again for the info. Much appreciated.

Harry

A. G. Maisey · 15th November 2015, 09:00 AM

This post concerns the pamor motif found in the sorsoran of Harry's keris.I've now been able to see it clearly, and I've been able to access my records.

Jean has nominated junjung darajat.

I have never seen junjung darajat, but my understanding is that it combines a small patch of ujung gunung, which is a miring pamor, with one of the mlumah pamors, my notes do not mention combination with another pamor miring.

Personally, I am inclined to regard this keris as having dwi warna pamor, that is two pamors in the one blade.

One of those pamors is adeg, this is clear, but the other pamor?

I feel that we have 4 or 5 possibles:- Putri Kenurung, Bawang Sebungkul, Sombro, Pengasih, and maybe the outside possibility of Slamet.

From these I'd be inclined to put my money on Pamor Sombro. When Sombro is combined with a second pamor the two pamors together can sometimes be given another name, but there is only mention of it being combined with mlumah pamors, not with miring, thus I feel we must regard this blade as dwi warna:- adeg sapu + sombro.

14th November 2015, 12:04 PM	#3
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Replaced hilt Thanks A.G. and Jean. The seller bought the hilt separately, and it is a replacement. The original hilt, not pictured, is rather plain and also wood. It looks similar to the hilt I have seen on many Keris. I will post a photo as soon as time allows. Thanks again. Harry

17th November 2015, 09:11 AM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Harry, Thanks for the pics, I maintain my opinion that the split is accidental but if you like it, that's OK! I attach the pic of a typical blade with combong, as you can see the void in the blade is due to the wear of the grooves in the sogokan. Regards Attached Images

14th November 2015, 01:30 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	The description of this keris given by the seller is not quite accurate. The blade is 13 luk, pamor is adeg in the body of the blade, and probably what we can call a "flame" pamor in the base ( I can give a Javanese name for this, but I will need to spend more time on analysis of this little patch of pamor in the sorsoran). It is probably a 20th century blade, but I cannot be certain of this from photos, no matter how good. The wrongko (warangka, scabbard) is Solo (Surakarta) gayaman, which is the informal, everyday style, the wood can probably be classified as kayu pelet, it might be timoho, but I cannot tell from a photo. The pendok (metal scabbard cover) is bunton style, the photos are not good enough for me to identify the embossed motif, but it is most likely lung-lungan ( twining vines and foliage). The jejeran (ukiran, hilt) is a Madurese style, depicting a serpent, it would be legitimate to describe this as a jejeran with naga motif. The mendak (hilt ring between hilt and blade) is a Central Javanese kendit set with pastes. The only thing wrong with this keris is the hilt, it is totally out of place, it should be taken off the keris and displayed separately as a miniature sculpture. This existing hilt should be replaced with a Solo planar style of hilt, preferably a yudowinatan model. Do this and you will have an absolutely correct Solo gayaman keris that could be used for wear on most occasions. It is a recent keris, but most definitely not "tourist", or "wall hanger". It is the real deal, but get rid of that hilt, it does not belong.

14th November 2015, 09:49 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	According to the EK and the Pamoratlas this pamor pattern with a triangular motif at the base and pamor Adeg above it is called Junjung Darajat and said to originate from Madura or East Java. Personally I am not convinced that the void in the middle of the blade is intentional. Regards

14th November 2015, 09:40 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	The blade is Madura or East Jawa, most likely Madura, but even so, the pamor in the sorsoran has several possibilities, and at the moment I cannot see it clearly enough to be too positive about what I'm looking at, I'm not at home right now and I'm using a very small, very cheap notebook. The blade crack probably started as a cold shut --- a welding flaw --- but would then have been preserved and refined to make it into a magically charged complong that will capture beautiful women and late model Maseratis for you, simply by looking through the crack at them and wishing.

17th November 2015, 11:00 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I agree with you Jean:- is is accidental, but it did not look like it does now directly after the weld failed. It started as a cold shut, an accident, but it was preserved and improved into a magical blade feature. The thinking is:- this was given to us by God, who are we to refuse it? no, I won't try to get the weld to take, I will accept God's gift and enhance it.

17th November 2015, 04:08 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Jean, while i have often seen people refer to holes worn through sogokan by excessive access washing i do have to wonder if this was the original intention of the term combong (or complong). I have seen blades where such an opening is obviously the intention of the smith and have to wonder if people calling these worn out blades "combong" is just a way of adding special interest where none should really exist.

15th November 2015, 09:00 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	This post concerns the pamor motif found in the sorsoran of Harry's keris.I've now been able to see it clearly, and I've been able to access my records. Jean has nominated junjung darajat. I have never seen junjung darajat, but my understanding is that it combines a small patch of ujung gunung, which is a miring pamor, with one of the mlumah pamors, my notes do not mention combination with another pamor miring. Personally, I am inclined to regard this keris as having dwi warna pamor, that is two pamors in the one blade. One of those pamors is adeg, this is clear, but the other pamor? I feel that we have 4 or 5 possibles:- Putri Kenurung, Bawang Sebungkul, Sombro, Pengasih, and maybe the outside possibility of Slamet. From these I'd be inclined to put my money on Pamor Sombro. When Sombro is combined with a second pamor the two pamors together can sometimes be given another name, but there is only mention of it being combined with mlumah pamors, not with miring, thus I feel we must regard this blade as dwi warna:- adeg sapu + sombro.