Flintlock Pair, Need help Identifying

Shakethetrees · 4th November 2015, 04:09 PM

Although they look European at a first glance, I think they're Turkish made for export. One European characteristic is the separate ram rod. Also, the lock appears to be of better quality than most Eastern European/Balkan/Turkish guns I've seen.

The punch marks are cryptic, and I have not heard of the name stamped under the breech.

The chasing or chisel work also is a strong indication of that region.

Silver wire inlay, ditto.

These appear to be of pretty good quality, and not the late slipshod work too often seen.

I would like to see some close ups of the lock from both sides.

Kubur · 4th November 2015, 05:51 PM

I confirm French pistols for Turkish market.
For me the punch marks are silver proofs.
Would be interesting to have the translation of the Arabic part...
And also a photo of the locks from outside!
If it's a true pair the value is increased...
Kubur

Kubur · 4th November 2015, 06:15 PM

Could be also French pistols for Algerian market, anyway Ottoman
The inscription will say... The frizen is not from the Balkans.
Pure pistols for export, very good quality indeed

Shakethetrees · 4th November 2015, 08:02 PM

The punch marks are absolutely not French silver marks. This is something I have dealt with for a long time.

The marks do not resemble those of any European country I know of.

Kubur · 4th November 2015, 10:00 PM

I agree for the punch marks especialy because one is 80 in Arabic numeral.
But i still think that's a French pistol for export, probably from Marseille.

Chertbolt · 5th November 2015, 02:59 AM

Thank you for your input.

I forgot to mention in my original post that I had the Arabic translated. I was told it reads the Arabic equivalent of "George Abraham" (or Ibrahim as its said in Arabic) with unconnected characters. Both pistols are marked with this name in the same location (underside of the grip).

I also forgot to note that nearly every piece of sliver on both pistols is stamped the same as the picture I posted. ( a star, and what I also thought might be the Arabic numeral '80' )

I'm unable to upload addition pictures at this time but I will post some more detailed photographs tomorrow.

If you look closely in the first picture you will notice both pistols have been defaced on the outside of the lock plate. I will get a close-up of this tomorrow.

There is also quite a bit of engraving on top of the barrel I will try to photograph. It is a crescent moon surrounded by stars.

Shakethetrees · 5th November 2015, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I agree for the punch marks especialy because one is 80 in Arabic numeral.
But i still think that's a French pistol for export, probably from Marseille.

The quality seems to be there for Marsailles, but silver was marked with an export stamp. As I recall, it was a goat's head.

Kubur · 5th November 2015, 01:55 PM

Ottoman Silver Marks
Kürkman, Garo
Istanbul: Mathusalem Publications, 1996
English - 293 pages
ISBN: 9789758129007
"A book by Garo Kürkman brings the tradition of silver marks and tughras, monograms of sultans
in stylized script, into light.For centuries, during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, it was
obligatory for gold and silver wares to be assayed and stamped at the states gold mint. These
marks are catalogued in the book titled “Ottoman Silver Marks.” The book contains a complete
list of the Tugra marks of the sultans and other silver marks."

4th November 2015, 04:09 PM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Although they look European at a first glance, I think they're Turkish made for export. One European characteristic is the separate ram rod. Also, the lock appears to be of better quality than most Eastern European/Balkan/Turkish guns I've seen. The punch marks are cryptic, and I have not heard of the name stamped under the breech. The chasing or chisel work also is a strong indication of that region. Silver wire inlay, ditto. These appear to be of pretty good quality, and not the late slipshod work too often seen. I would like to see some close ups of the lock from both sides.

4th November 2015, 05:51 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I confirm French pistols for Turkish market. For me the punch marks are silver proofs. Would be interesting to have the translation of the Arabic part... And also a photo of the locks from outside! If it's a true pair the value is increased... Kubur

4th November 2015, 06:15 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Could be also French pistols for Algerian market, anyway Ottoman The inscription will say... The frizen is not from the Balkans. Pure pistols for export, very good quality indeed

4th November 2015, 08:02 PM	#4
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	The punch marks are absolutely not French silver marks. This is something I have dealt with for a long time. The marks do not resemble those of any European country I know of.

4th November 2015, 10:00 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I agree for the punch marks especialy because one is 80 in Arabic numeral. But i still think that's a French pistol for export, probably from Marseille.

5th November 2015, 02:59 AM	#6
Chertbolt Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 6	Thank you for your input. I forgot to mention in my original post that I had the Arabic translated. I was told it reads the Arabic equivalent of "George Abraham" (or Ibrahim as its said in Arabic) with unconnected characters. Both pistols are marked with this name in the same location (underside of the grip). I also forgot to note that nearly every piece of sliver on both pistols is stamped the same as the picture I posted. ( a star, and what I also thought might be the Arabic numeral '80' ) I'm unable to upload addition pictures at this time but I will post some more detailed photographs tomorrow. If you look closely in the first picture you will notice both pistols have been defaced on the outside of the lock plate. I will get a close-up of this tomorrow. There is also quite a bit of engraving on top of the barrel I will try to photograph. It is a crescent moon surrounded by stars.

5th November 2015, 01:55 PM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Ottoman Silver Marks Kürkman, Garo Istanbul: Mathusalem Publications, 1996 English - 293 pages ISBN: 9789758129007 "A book by Garo Kürkman brings the tradition of silver marks and tughras, monograms of sultans in stylized script, into light.For centuries, during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, it was obligatory for gold and silver wares to be assayed and stamped at the states gold mint. These marks are catalogued in the book titled “Ottoman Silver Marks.” The book contains a complete list of the Tugra marks of the sultans and other silver marks."