How did Empus obtain steel?

David · 2nd November 2015, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In the late 19th and early 20th century the Javanese smiths had a great fondness for Dutch railway lines. These bules were incredibly stupid to put such valuable material out on the ground in isolated places with no guards --- difficult to understand how they think.

LOL! So glad i wasn't drinking anything when i read this or i may have ruined my keyboard snorting out the liquid.

Battara · 5th November 2015, 12:26 AM

I forgot to add that in later years steel also came from truck and car springs as well.

A. G. Maisey · 5th November 2015, 01:15 AM

Yes, spring steel is usually very good material for knives, and for some other tools as well, but it is no good at all for keris.

What is required for keris is high quality wrought iron, or low carbon mild steel for the outer faces, either mixed with contrasting material to create pamor, or not, and a high carbon mild steel --- these days called a medium carbon steel --- of say around .5%C for the core.

The keris does not need high carbon material for its core, in fact, such material is not at all a good choice for the core of a keris. The keris as a weapon is used to thrust, it is not primarily a cutting weapon, and it is certainly not a tool, all that is required is material that will take an edge, not necessarily hold an edge. The softer material permits greater protection against breakage.

It could be argued that a high carbon steel, something like 01 (1%C) can be hardened and drawn to a spring temper (blue/straw) and that will provide flexibility, however, very few Javanese smiths seem to have an understanding of this today, and my guess is that in the past even less understood this. The traditional heat treat for a keris is a simple water quench not followed by a draw. This type of heat treat works very well for steels of less than .6%C.

Battara · 5th November 2015, 04:08 AM

I agree Alan. That is why earlier Moro and Filipino smiths also blended layers of soft and harder steels for strength and impact resilience, especially since they did not use thrusting as much as slashing and cutting.

A. G. Maisey · 5th November 2015, 05:33 AM

If you forge weld layers of steel with varying content of carbon, what you're doing is producing mechanical damascus. The technique was known in a number of places throughout the world, and although one of the benefits is a product with a more aggressive edge than homogenous steel, as well as a high durability factor, the big benefit in times past when quality steel was not so easy to get hold of, was that by combining the varying qualities of material it permitted the cheaper, often locally produced material to be used to extend the quantity of the the more expensive material.

Javanese smiths used the same rationale of extending high quality material by adding low quality material to it, but they used a much more economical method by constructing the body of the blade from iron, and the cutting edge only from steel. This cutting edge was not always a wafer that went the full width of the blade, but in older blades was frequently only a thin wafer that ran around the circumference of the blade, as with Viking blades and Merovingian blades.

In my previous post I was talking about keris construction, but other old Javanese blades also can be found to use this same method of construction where only the edge is steel. Pretty much like some Scandinavian knives of today.

Tatyana Dianova · 9th November 2015, 08:38 PM

The Pamor on this Balinese Keris looks like it was made of some kind of crucible steel, although a metallurgical analysis is needed to be sure...

Seerp Visser · 19th November 2015, 09:44 PM

I red an article from a Dutch scientist visiting one of the islands (Sulawesi?) and describing that there they were making crucible steel. They used the material for their plows.
I cannot find the article but will look further for it and post it as soon as i find it.

Furthermore there is an article that describes the way of making iron/steel by the Dajaks.
They put a layer of charcoal on the bottom of their furnaces. On this way they add carbon into the bloomery iron and can make a kind of steel.

David · 24th November 2015, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

The Pamor on this Balinese Keris looks like it was made of some kind of crucible steel, although a metallurgical analysis is needed to be sure...

This seems unlikely to me Tatyana. Pamor is generally not steel. The word literally means "mixture" and it is generally a mix of various iron ores with varying ferric and/or nickelous content.

9th November 2015, 08:38 PM	#6
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	The Pamor on this Balinese Keris looks like it was made of some kind of crucible steel, although a metallurgical analysis is needed to be sure... Attached Images

19th November 2015, 09:44 PM	#7
Seerp Visser Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 37	Crucible steel I red an article from a Dutch scientist visiting one of the islands (Sulawesi?) and describing that there they were making crucible steel. They used the material for their plows. I cannot find the article but will look further for it and post it as soon as i find it. Furthermore there is an article that describes the way of making iron/steel by the Dajaks. They put a layer of charcoal on the bottom of their furnaces. On this way they add carbon into the bloomery iron and can make a kind of steel.

5th November 2015, 12:26 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	I forgot to add that in later years steel also came from truck and car springs as well.

5th November 2015, 01:15 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes, spring steel is usually very good material for knives, and for some other tools as well, but it is no good at all for keris. What is required for keris is high quality wrought iron, or low carbon mild steel for the outer faces, either mixed with contrasting material to create pamor, or not, and a high carbon mild steel --- these days called a medium carbon steel --- of say around .5%C for the core. The keris does not need high carbon material for its core, in fact, such material is not at all a good choice for the core of a keris. The keris as a weapon is used to thrust, it is not primarily a cutting weapon, and it is certainly not a tool, all that is required is material that will take an edge, not necessarily hold an edge. The softer material permits greater protection against breakage. It could be argued that a high carbon steel, something like 01 (1%C) can be hardened and drawn to a spring temper (blue/straw) and that will provide flexibility, however, very few Javanese smiths seem to have an understanding of this today, and my guess is that in the past even less understood this. The traditional heat treat for a keris is a simple water quench not followed by a draw. This type of heat treat works very well for steels of less than .6%C.

5th November 2015, 04:08 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	I agree Alan. That is why earlier Moro and Filipino smiths also blended layers of soft and harder steels for strength and impact resilience, especially since they did not use thrusting as much as slashing and cutting.

5th November 2015, 05:33 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	If you forge weld layers of steel with varying content of carbon, what you're doing is producing mechanical damascus. The technique was known in a number of places throughout the world, and although one of the benefits is a product with a more aggressive edge than homogenous steel, as well as a high durability factor, the big benefit in times past when quality steel was not so easy to get hold of, was that by combining the varying qualities of material it permitted the cheaper, often locally produced material to be used to extend the quantity of the the more expensive material. Javanese smiths used the same rationale of extending high quality material by adding low quality material to it, but they used a much more economical method by constructing the body of the blade from iron, and the cutting edge only from steel. This cutting edge was not always a wafer that went the full width of the blade, but in older blades was frequently only a thin wafer that ran around the circumference of the blade, as with Viking blades and Merovingian blades. In my previous post I was talking about keris construction, but other old Javanese blades also can be found to use this same method of construction where only the edge is steel. Pretty much like some Scandinavian knives of today.