The Javanese blade age guessing game

A. G. Maisey · 1st November 2015, 11:19 PM

Age per se is not an important factor, but perceived age, as related to perceived era is a relevant factor.

For a Javanese keris conscious person the base system of reference is the tangguh system, and this tangguh system is based on a belief system. Here is a link to a page in my site that gives a brief outline of tangguh:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html

In respect of the Javanese artistic appreciation of keris art, the first principle is to relate the blade to human body language and form, as understood within Javanese society. Following on from that, more universal standards that apply to excellence of craftsmanship and achievement of pre-determined objectives can be applied.

The ideas of a blade being "empty" or of being "alive" are largely dependent upon individual perception within the framework of the keris belief system. To a degree this can be regarded as a culturally related concept, but instances have occurred where people outside the Javanese culture system, and with absolutely no understanding of it have encountered a perception of a presence related to a keris.

RSWORD · 2nd November 2015, 12:59 PM

Thanks very much for the feedback and discussions so far.

An opinion without a solid stream of reasoning is useless? Depends on the context. If you are an appraiser you can't do that. You must provide your supporting evidence to support your conclusion. If you are a dealer and you are putting a premium value on an item because of reason XYZ you need to support that with evidence. All that makes perfect sense and I agree completely. But in a less rigid environment of say a think tank or a brainstorming session sometimes an unsubstantiated opinion can spark a direction which ultimately leads to the fact finding to support it. It's the chicken and the egg. Sometimes we don't have the ability to support an opinion until many, many years later. Is the world flat or round? Einsteins theory of relativity. It took many years to support the hypothesis mathematically.

In this scenario, the guessing game was intended to be fun, maybe educational and to hopefully spark some discussion. We learned about how the Javanese look at dating a blade. They don't. They use Tangguh to classify it and within that cultural context that is most important. For me personally I respect that and want to understand it. I also have a vivid imagination and thinking about the actual age of the blade sends me on a journey in my mind. What all has this blade seen. How many hands has it been exchanged. What countries has it seen. With one of the blade having the potential to be very old really sparks my imagination about what the journey of this blade has been like. Some might say that is pointless since I will never know for sure. I say it never hurts to let your imagination wander from time to time.

So perhaps a better question would have been if anyone would care to hazard a guess as to the Tangguh of these Keris again with the caveat they are from my poor pictures?

Sajen · 2nd November 2015, 03:03 PM

Hello Rick,

I only can tell you that blade #1, #2 & #5 seems to be better blades to my eyes. I am correct that I see traces of gilding at the gonjo by blade #1?

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 2nd November 2015, 09:13 PM

I don't think that anybody has said that an opinion without a solid stream of reasoning is useless.

Of course it is not, however, if one wishes to put forward the opinion that it is raining, one must be able to either see, hear or feel the rain. Any opinion that rain is falling without some relevant evidence to support the opinion that rain is falling can be regarded as an opinion without foundation. This type of opinion is based upon physical evidence.

Alternatively, where an opinion can be based upon a recognised system, application of that system can be used to support the opinion. This type of opinion is based upon reason and/or logic.

However, in the case of the Javanese keris, no recognised system exists that can be used to support an opinion in respect of true age of a keris, thus such an opinion depends upon the experience of the person giving the opinion, in effect it becomes a subjective opinion, and can only be given in the presence of the subject, which by its presence, provides the evidence.

Where an opinion on keris age is given upon the basis of a photograph, and in the physical absence of the keris it is simply not possible to support such an opinion in any rational way.

Where the photograph is of a keris of very high quality, in excellent condition, and of a recognisable form, probably most experienced keris conscious people would be prepared to give a qualified opinion, I know that under these circumstances I would be prepared to give such an opinion, however, that opinion would not be firm in respect of age, it would be a qualified opinion in respect of classification or tangguh.

I learnt keris appraisal from a man who was probably the most respected authority in Jawa, on the Javanese keris, in the period from the late 1970's, until his passing in 1995. I was taught that if I wish to provide an opinion on a keris I must be able to support that opinion, it is worse than useless to provide an opinion if one cannot support the opinion. This is especially so if a person is already in a position where his reputation is on the line every time he makes a statement.

One must be able to support one's opinion.

I am regularly called upon to appraise keris, and I do not give an opinion unless I can support that opinion.

If we are now looking for tangguh classifications, rather than age estimates, that's a game that I'm quite prepared to play, in spite of the fact that these keris under discussion are not of very high quality, nor in particularly good condition. However, I need some more photos.

I need the hilts to be removed from all keris, and close ups provided of the top of each gonjo, looking directly down on to it, and with the pesi not obstructing the gonjo top.

I also need a close up of each pesi.

I need a close up of the mid-section of each blade , this should be of only about 3 or 4 inches of blade.

For blade #5 I need several close ups of both sides of the gonjo joint (ie, where the gonjo joins the blade), and close ups of the base of the pesi where it enters the gonjo taken from both sides. These base of gonjo shots should be taken at an angle looking down onto the edge of the hole where the pesi enters the gonjo.

If I can see those photos I'll do my best to provide a qualified opinion in respect of tangguh.

Incidentally, where blade quality is concerned, keris #2 appears to be far superior to anything else in the line up. To a degree this opinion can be confirmed by close examination of the entire blade:- if the side we cannot see matches perfectly the side we can see, then this is a very competently made blade. By "match perfectly" I mean that the placement, size and form of all features is precisely the same on each side. "Precise" means exactly that.

1st November 2015, 11:19 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Age per se is not an important factor, but perceived age, as related to perceived era is a relevant factor. For a Javanese keris conscious person the base system of reference is the tangguh system, and this tangguh system is based on a belief system. Here is a link to a page in my site that gives a brief outline of tangguh:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/keristangguh.html In respect of the Javanese artistic appreciation of keris art, the first principle is to relate the blade to human body language and form, as understood within Javanese society. Following on from that, more universal standards that apply to excellence of craftsmanship and achievement of pre-determined objectives can be applied. The ideas of a blade being "empty" or of being "alive" are largely dependent upon individual perception within the framework of the keris belief system. To a degree this can be regarded as a culturally related concept, but instances have occurred where people outside the Javanese culture system, and with absolutely no understanding of it have encountered a perception of a presence related to a keris.

2nd November 2015, 12:59 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Thanks very much for the feedback and discussions so far. An opinion without a solid stream of reasoning is useless? Depends on the context. If you are an appraiser you can't do that. You must provide your supporting evidence to support your conclusion. If you are a dealer and you are putting a premium value on an item because of reason XYZ you need to support that with evidence. All that makes perfect sense and I agree completely. But in a less rigid environment of say a think tank or a brainstorming session sometimes an unsubstantiated opinion can spark a direction which ultimately leads to the fact finding to support it. It's the chicken and the egg. Sometimes we don't have the ability to support an opinion until many, many years later. Is the world flat or round? Einsteins theory of relativity. It took many years to support the hypothesis mathematically. In this scenario, the guessing game was intended to be fun, maybe educational and to hopefully spark some discussion. We learned about how the Javanese look at dating a blade. They don't. They use Tangguh to classify it and within that cultural context that is most important. For me personally I respect that and want to understand it. I also have a vivid imagination and thinking about the actual age of the blade sends me on a journey in my mind. What all has this blade seen. How many hands has it been exchanged. What countries has it seen. With one of the blade having the potential to be very old really sparks my imagination about what the journey of this blade has been like. Some might say that is pointless since I will never know for sure. I say it never hurts to let your imagination wander from time to time. So perhaps a better question would have been if anyone would care to hazard a guess as to the Tangguh of these Keris again with the caveat they are from my poor pictures?

2nd November 2015, 03:03 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,272	Hello Rick, I only can tell you that blade #1, #2 & #5 seems to be better blades to my eyes. I am correct that I see traces of gilding at the gonjo by blade #1? Regards, Detlef

2nd November 2015, 09:13 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I don't think that anybody has said that an opinion without a solid stream of reasoning is useless. Of course it is not, however, if one wishes to put forward the opinion that it is raining, one must be able to either see, hear or feel the rain. Any opinion that rain is falling without some relevant evidence to support the opinion that rain is falling can be regarded as an opinion without foundation. This type of opinion is based upon physical evidence. Alternatively, where an opinion can be based upon a recognised system, application of that system can be used to support the opinion. This type of opinion is based upon reason and/or logic. However, in the case of the Javanese keris, no recognised system exists that can be used to support an opinion in respect of true age of a keris, thus such an opinion depends upon the experience of the person giving the opinion, in effect it becomes a subjective opinion, and can only be given in the presence of the subject, which by its presence, provides the evidence. Where an opinion on keris age is given upon the basis of a photograph, and in the physical absence of the keris it is simply not possible to support such an opinion in any rational way. Where the photograph is of a keris of very high quality, in excellent condition, and of a recognisable form, probably most experienced keris conscious people would be prepared to give a qualified opinion, I know that under these circumstances I would be prepared to give such an opinion, however, that opinion would not be firm in respect of age, it would be a qualified opinion in respect of classification or tangguh. I learnt keris appraisal from a man who was probably the most respected authority in Jawa, on the Javanese keris, in the period from the late 1970's, until his passing in 1995. I was taught that if I wish to provide an opinion on a keris I must be able to support that opinion, it is worse than useless to provide an opinion if one cannot support the opinion. This is especially so if a person is already in a position where his reputation is on the line every time he makes a statement. One must be able to support one's opinion. I am regularly called upon to appraise keris, and I do not give an opinion unless I can support that opinion. If we are now looking for tangguh classifications, rather than age estimates, that's a game that I'm quite prepared to play, in spite of the fact that these keris under discussion are not of very high quality, nor in particularly good condition. However, I need some more photos. I need the hilts to be removed from all keris, and close ups provided of the top of each gonjo, looking directly down on to it, and with the pesi not obstructing the gonjo top. I also need a close up of each pesi. I need a close up of the mid-section of each blade , this should be of only about 3 or 4 inches of blade. For blade #5 I need several close ups of both sides of the gonjo joint (ie, where the gonjo joins the blade), and close ups of the base of the pesi where it enters the gonjo taken from both sides. These base of gonjo shots should be taken at an angle looking down onto the edge of the hole where the pesi enters the gonjo. If I can see those photos I'll do my best to provide a qualified opinion in respect of tangguh. Incidentally, where blade quality is concerned, keris #2 appears to be far superior to anything else in the line up. To a degree this opinion can be confirmed by close examination of the entire blade:- if the side we cannot see matches perfectly the side we can see, then this is a very competently made blade. By "match perfectly" I mean that the placement, size and form of all features is precisely the same on each side. "Precise" means exactly that.