Fighting Irons

Timo Nieminen · 1st November 2015, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

The double pendulum, the simplest version of these, shows chaotic behavior when subjected to simple to-and-fro movement.

Coincidentally, I recently did a lecture on the double pendulum. However, for very low energies (i.e., just hanging a swinging a little bit) or very high energies (i.e., round and round in a big circle), it isn't that chaotic.

The benefits of these weapons are (sometimes) reach, and they wrap around blocks/parries with shields and weapons. Also, the opponent might not be familiar, so one might have the "secret weapon advantage". I don't like them. My tactic against one would be to close in quickly, and get past the dangerous ranges. Unpleasant if you don't do it right.

The classic Japanese flexible weapon, the manrikigusari, has a name that's hard to match: literally, 10,000 power chain. A loose English translation would be "mega-powerful chain". Imagine 3 Japanese police, confronted by a violent samurai. One says to another "I've only got a jutte; you've got the mega-powerful chain, you fight him".

While swinging it hard at somebody isn't that chaotic, they can still surprise you and bite you badly. It's the classic "double-edged sword" in the way that real double-edged swords aren't.

Ian · 1st November 2015, 02:00 PM

Gavin: Thanks for the link to Jet Li. Impressive choreography! The ball on a chain (or fire hose with brass end) is a standard simple pendulum, and I imagine not all that difficult to use in a predictable manner. Some of the uses shown in the video were obviously contrived for effect, but I can see how a ball and chain could be effective, even at relatively close quarters.

Timo: Thanks for your observations on the double pendulum and its behavior at low and high energies. I imagine that the high energy behavior of multiple pendular would be similar if swung in a continuous arc. But for close quarter work, I think one would have to shorten the length, and perhaps revert from a multiple link version to a simple one-link version. I could then see the weapon Andrew posted as being quite effective in close.

Does anyone know the origin of these multi-jointed lever weapons or ball and chain weapons in Asia? I have always thought that they were derived from the agricultural flail that is used to thresh grain. At least that seemed like a logical origin, and there are several references to this origin in Europe. But what about elsewhere?

Ian.

Timo Nieminen · 1st November 2015, 10:21 PM

I think that there are 3 distinct families of these jointed weapons.

1. Flails derived from agricultural threshing flails. Chinese and Korean military flails are examples. There's a section in the Muye Dobo Tongji, a Korean military manual from the 18th century, on the two-handed flail as a cavalry weapon. Pretty similar to European two-handed flails.

2. Weights or blades on the end of a rope or chain. The chain versions are, I guess, cut-resistant versions of the rope weapons. Compact, easily-hidden, long reach. Probably originated as pure weapons. Possibly for police work or capture, rather than as deadly weapons.

3. Jointed iron whips. These have the weight distributed along their length, and therefore differ from 2 above. They don't look like their modified from agricultural flails, either. Maybe they derive from leather whips? Whips were being used by the Chinese military quite early. By chariot drivers, for whipping the horses. Which would suggest the idea of the whip-chain, at least.

There are various hybrid weapons which don't easily fit any of these categories. A long staff with a long chain with a weight on the end, 3 section staff, possibly nunchuks (are such short-handled flails used by farmers anywhere?). Legend says that the first 3 section staff was made from a two-handed flail with a broken handle.

1st November 2015, 02:00 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,454	Gavin: Thanks for the link to Jet Li. Impressive choreography! The ball on a chain (or fire hose with brass end) is a standard simple pendulum, and I imagine not all that difficult to use in a predictable manner. Some of the uses shown in the video were obviously contrived for effect, but I can see how a ball and chain could be effective, even at relatively close quarters. Timo: Thanks for your observations on the double pendulum and its behavior at low and high energies. I imagine that the high energy behavior of multiple pendular would be similar if swung in a continuous arc. But for close quarter work, I think one would have to shorten the length, and perhaps revert from a multiple link version to a simple one-link version. I could then see the weapon Andrew posted as being quite effective in close. Does anyone know the origin of these multi-jointed lever weapons or ball and chain weapons in Asia? I have always thought that they were derived from the agricultural flail that is used to thresh grain. At least that seemed like a logical origin, and there are several references to this origin in Europe. But what about elsewhere? Ian.

1st November 2015, 10:21 PM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	I think that there are 3 distinct families of these jointed weapons. 1. Flails derived from agricultural threshing flails. Chinese and Korean military flails are examples. There's a section in the Muye Dobo Tongji, a Korean military manual from the 18th century, on the two-handed flail as a cavalry weapon. Pretty similar to European two-handed flails. 2. Weights or blades on the end of a rope or chain. The chain versions are, I guess, cut-resistant versions of the rope weapons. Compact, easily-hidden, long reach. Probably originated as pure weapons. Possibly for police work or capture, rather than as deadly weapons. 3. Jointed iron whips. These have the weight distributed along their length, and therefore differ from 2 above. They don't look like their modified from agricultural flails, either. Maybe they derive from leather whips? Whips were being used by the Chinese military quite early. By chariot drivers, for whipping the horses. Which would suggest the idea of the whip-chain, at least. There are various hybrid weapons which don't easily fit any of these categories. A long staff with a long chain with a weight on the end, 3 section staff, possibly nunchuks (are such short-handled flails used by farmers anywhere?). Legend says that the first 3 section staff was made from a two-handed flail with a broken handle.