Turkish Shamshir

[A.alnakkas]

While you are replying to Alex here I must say that I find Artzi's description of saif meaning curved sword is incorrect.

Saif does not translate to curved sword. Nor were curved swords the only swords called 'saif'

Every sword, be it curved or not, is called saif in Arabic.

[A.alnakkas]

Btw Eric,

Usamah ibn Almunkidh is an Arab, not 'saracenic' whatever that means.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Btw Eric,

Usamah ibn Almunkidh is an Arab, not 'saracenic' whatever that means.

Robinson was relaying a quote from Usamah's memoirs, he was describing the equipment of an Emir in Ayyubid times

Saracen
[sar-uh-suh n]
Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1.
History/Historical. a member of any of the nomadic tribes on the Syrian borders of the Roman Empire.
2.
(in later use) an Arab.
3.
a Muslim, especially in the period of the Crusades.
adjective
4.
Also, Saracenic [sar-uh-sen-ik] (Show IPA), Saracenical. of or relating to the Saracens.

From Wikipedia.

Majd ad-Dīn Usāma ibn Murshid ibn ʿAlī ibn Munqidh al-Kināni al-Kalbi[1] (also Usamah, Ousama, etc.; Arabic: أسامة بن منقذ‎) (July 4, 1095 – November 17, 1188[2]) was a medieval Muslim poet, author, faris (knight), and diplomat from the Banu Munqidh dynasty of Shaizar in northern Syria. His life coincided with the rise of several medieval Muslim dynasties, the arrival of the First Crusade, and the establishment of the crusader states.

During and immediately after his life he was most famous as a poet and adib (a "man of letters"). In modern times he is remembered for his Kitab al-I'tibar ("Book of Learning by Example" or "Book of Contemplation"), which contains lengthy descriptions of the crusaders, whom he interacted with on many occasions, and some of whom he considered friends, although he generally saw them as ignorant foreigners. He died in Damascus in 1188, at the age of 93.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Robinson was relaying a quote from Usamah's memoirs, he was describing the equipment of an Emir in Ayyubid times



From Wikipedia.

Yep, but the key point is that Usamah ibn almunkidh is an Arab from the Banu Munkidh tribe.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

While you are replying to Alex here I must say that I find Artzi's description of saif meaning curved sword is incorrect.

Saif does not translate to curved sword. Nor were curved swords the only swords called 'saif'

Every sword, be it curved or not, is called saif in Arabic.

Since no one here can seem to find any references to back up what they are saying I will provide a few more.

I was sent this quote supposedly from "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries", Robert Elgood, 1994. Since I do not have the book I can not verify it this is correct, if anyone does have it maybe they can check and see if it is.

The curved sword or sabre, known as a saif was usually locally made and derived from Persia from where it was imported or from Egypt, Iraq and Syria. These countries imitated the Persian blade form and adopted the technology.

The Army of the Indian Moghuls: Its Organization and Administration, William Irvine, 1903.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Since no one here can seem to find any references to back up what they are saying I will provide a few more.

I was sent this quote supposedly from "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries", Robert Elgood, 1994. Since I do not have the book I can not verify it this is correct, if anyone does have it maybe they can check and see if it is.



The Army of the Indian Moghuls: Its Organization and Administration, William Irvine, 1903.

Do I need to reference using my own language? Saif is a word much older than the 18th, 19th and 20th century and Elgood here is referring to saifs with Persian blades. And saifs could have curved, straight, shallow curved blades from Europe to India, it will still be called a saif.

Also, he mentioned the term 'sabre' which is the key term here, rather than curved which can be confusing. The arab swords with a shallow curve are still considered sabres.

As for the word 'Tegh' being Arabic, I believe thats completely wrong. Its a Persian word.

It has nothing to do with a hilt type, I am afraid. It has to do with the object as a whole.

Yes, the tulwar hilted sword will be called a saif, by an Arab using the Arabic language. So is the many other types of swords.

[Kubur]

It is amazing that you talk to each others and you don't give a shit to what i wrote previously. If you take in consideration the others you will learn something. I can understand that people are leaving this forum with such a low level. And I talk about you three guys!

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Kubur

It is amazing that you talk to each others and you don't give a shit to what i wrote previously. If you take in consideration the others you will learn something. I can understand that people are leaving this forum with such a low level. And I talk about you three guys!

Hey Kubur, Eric, and everyone else,

Apologies to anyone I may have offended. Kubur, we are basically on the same line, thus I did not see a necessity to respond to you. Would it count if I nodded as I read your comment?

Eric; the issue is that local terms are being confused with 'collector' terms. There should be a post dedicated to what collectors should call items and what the locals and users of those items (historically or contemporary) called said items.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Eric; the issue is that local terms are being confused with 'collector' terms. There should be a post dedicated to what collectors should call items and what the locals and users of those items (historically or contemporary) called said items.

I agree completely, this is what I have been saying in my posts. I personally am not making anything up, I am just showing references that may have influenced past uses of the word, whether they are accurate or not. Local armor and weapons terms and use have always been subject to the whims of visitors, not just in Arab countries.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hey Kubur, Eric, and everyone else,

Apologies to anyone I may have offended. Kubur, we are basically on the same line, thus I did not see a necessity to respond to you. Would it count if I nodded as I read your comment?

Eric; the issue is that local terms are being confused with 'collector' terms. There should be a post dedicated to what collectors should call items and what the locals and users of those items (historically or contemporary) called said items.

Ralass Ustaz, the case is closed!

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Kubur

It is amazing that you talk to each others and you don't give a shit to what i wrote previously. If you take in consideration the others you will learn something. I can understand that people are leaving this forum with such a low level. And I talk about you three guys!

I don't agree with you about the term "to learn"... these are your words from previous post, Kubur But seriously, the problem here is that people arguing about terminology and picking minor differences in descriptions and words based on what they saw or read somewhere. It is meaningless to argue what sword to call a sword, and to not know the difference between them I think you know the difference, but getting drugged into semantic.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Kubur

It is amazing that you talk to each others and you don't give a shit to what i wrote previously. If you take in consideration the others you will learn something. I can understand that people are leaving this forum with such a low level. And I talk about you three guys!

Kuber, do you have any references to back up your views?

Originally Posted by Kubur

Let me enter in the "dance", I vote for Alex! But I would like to add something:
Saif is the Arabic word for sword, no more. It can be - and not should be - apply to Arabic swords.

And again the origin of the blade doesn't define a sword.
An Arabian sword with a Persian blade is an Arabian sword, called sometimes saif sometimes Arabian shamshir by collectors...
Kubur

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Kuber, do you have any references to back up your views?

By references, do you mean:

- catalogues like Pinchot or Hales?

- or scientific references like Elgood?

Yes I have "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries".

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Kubur

By references, do you mean:

- catalogues like Pinchot or Hales?

- or scientific references like Elgood?

Yes I have "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries".

Any written/printed reference (right or wrong) that helps explain why somone may have certain views on the topic of saif.

Since you have Elgoods book can you verify the quote I posted, does he have anything else to say on the subject ?