Turkish Shamshir

[TVV]

You are correct: definitely Ottoman and 19th century. I do believe this is one of the early military regulation patterns in the Ottoman army. It would appear that officers were allowed to keep heirloom blades and re-hilt them, as I have seen all kinds of blades with this hilt pattern.

Sincerely,
Teodor

[Kubur]

Yes, it's a beautiful Turkish officer sword, called also Turkish military sword.
I have one too that I'll post later.
But yours is better, with the stamp...
This kind of sword is from 1890-1910...Maybe yours is slightly early from 1870-1890...
I like the old and funny try to fix the guard.
Last point, it's not a shamshir, but a kilij in Turkish or a saif in Arabic.
Best,
Kubur

[ALEX]

Agree with Teodor, many of these have all kinds of blades, European and/or earlier blades. I saw a few with early wootz blades.

Do you think this blade is Persian, Caucasian, or could be Armenian(?).

Originally Posted by Kubur

... Last point, it's not a shamshir, but a kilij in Turkish or a saif in Arabic.
Best,
Kubur

Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

Irrespective of what the different terms mean/meant in different times, countries and cultures "saif" and "kilij" now refers to two different types of swords. Kilij refering to the strictly Ottoman sword with a distintive grip, while saif refers to the sword with the type of grip pictured below, of course people can use whatever term they choose but why use any other term besides kilij for the Ottoman sword with the distinctive kilij grip? If it has a "karabela" grip it is a karabela, if it has a "kilij" grip it is a kilij, if it has a "saif" grip it is a saif.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Irrespective of what the different terms mean/meant in different times, countries and cultures "saif" and "kilij" now refers to two different types of swords. Kilij refering to the strictly Ottoman sword with a distintive grip, while saif refers to the sword with the type of grip pictured below, of course people can use whatever term they choose but why use any other term besides kilij for the Ottoman sword with the distinctive kilij grip? If it has a "karabela" grip it is a karabela, if it has a "kilij" grip it is a kilij, if it has a "saif" grip it is a saif.

Right, that was exactly my point about the Kilij)
Also, the grip alone does not define the type of sword. it's a whole sword that does, and primarily the blade. The grip (and the sword on it) that you pictured above is not saif. Saif is an Arabic word for "sword", and represents Arabian/Bedouin sword type with (usually) straight blade. The one pictured above is Indian.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ALEX

The grip (and the sword on it) that you pictured above is not saif. Saif is an Arabic word for "sword", and represents Arabian/Bedouin sword type with (usually) straight blade. The one pictured above is Indian.

I and many other people would consider it to be a saif, maybe an Indian saif but still a saif, you certainly would not call it a tulwar. As I said, it does not matter what the origin of the term is, how it is used in our times can and does differ from its original meaning. The term "saif" for many people in our times has come to describe swords from many different cultures with this distinctive hilt. As I said people can use terms whatever way they want but when I hear the word "saif" this is what I see in my mind, just like when I hear "kilij" I picture the distinctive Ottoman hilt, while the blades may differ the hilt is a very static item.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I and many other people would consider it to be a saif, maybe an Indian saif but still a saif, you certainly would not call it a tulwar. As I said, it does not matter what the origin of the term is, how it is used in our times can and does differ from its original meaning. The term "saif" for many people in our times has come to describe swords from many different cultures with this distinctive hilt. As I said people can use terms whatever way they want but when I hear the word "saif" this is what I see in my mind, just like when I hear "kilij" I picture the distinctive Ottoman hilt, while the blades may differ the hilt is a very static item.

Hi Strech,

I agree for the end of what you wrote.

I think that the blade is Caucasian or Persian. But some members will tell.

Anyway it's a pure Turkish / Ottoman sword.

Best,

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I and many other people would consider it to be a saif, maybe an Indian saif but still a saif, you certainly would not call it a tulwar. As I said, it does not matter what the origin of the term is, how it is used in our times can and does differ from its original meaning. The term "saif" for many people in our times has come to describe swords from many different cultures with this distinctive hilt. As I said people can use terms whatever way they want but when I hear the word "saif" this is what I see in my mind, just like when I hear "kilij" I picture the distinctive Ottoman hilt, while the blades may differ the hilt is a very static item.

and many people call it wrong! Saif is an Arabic word for Arabian sword type. Calling an Indian tulwar Saif because it has non-tulwar hilt is like calling indian sword Kilij because it has yelman. The "Origin of the term" does matter! and dismissing it in favor of how it is used in "our time" is simply not correct as it defies history)

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Right, that was exactly my point about the Kilij)
Also, the grip alone does not define the type of sword. it's a whole sword that does, and primarily the blade. The grip (and the sword on it) that you pictured above is not saif. Saif is an Arabic word for "sword", and represents Arabian/Bedouin sword type with (usually) straight blade. The one pictured above is Indian.

I don't agree at ALL.
It's the GRIP who defines the sword.
The blades are traded, captured or whatever.
A kattara or a Kaskara with German blades, are they German swords?
No they are Omani and Sudanese...
To be more precise, the DNA of the sword are the GRIP and the SCABBARD.

Best,
Kubur

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I don't agree at ALL.
It's the GRIP who defines the sword.
The blades are traded, captured or whatever.
A kattara or a Kaskara with German blades, are they German swords?
No they are Omani and Sudanese...
To be more precise, the DNA of the sword are the GRIP and the SCABBARD.

Best,
Kubur

I mean the HILT not the grip!

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I don't agree at ALL.
It's the GRIP who defines the sword.
The blades are traded, captured or whatever.
A kattara or a Kaskara with German blades, are they German swords?
No they are Omani and Sudanese...
To be more precise, the DNA of the sword are the GRIP and the SCABBARD.
Best,
Kubur

It really depends. There's no single rule. However, the blade is usually gets re-hilted, not the hilt gets re-bladed Ideally, the blade would match the hilt at least ethnographically. If not, that is of no argument. if an Indian tulwar blade gets Ottoman handle, it would not become Ottoman sword! it'll remain indian tulwar blade with Ottoman handle. granted, some people will be quick to call it Ottoman, but that's another story)

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Irrespective of what the different terms mean/meant in different times, countries and cultures "saif" and "kilij" now refers to two different types of swords. Kilij refering to the strictly Ottoman sword with a distintive grip, while saif refers to the sword with the type of grip pictured below, of course people can use whatever term they choose but why use any other term besides kilij for the Ottoman sword with the distinctive kilij grip? If it has a "karabela" grip it is a karabela, if it has a "kilij" grip it is a kilij, if it has a "saif" grip it is a saif.

Why is an Indian hilt design is identified with the Arab word for sword?

[A.alnakkas]

The word saif predates this hilt design by well, quite alot of time. The Arabs called swords "saif" (I emphasize that saif simply means sword) even when sword hilts are of a different design. So how come this type of hilt became 'saif' ?

[ALEX]

exactly my point, Lotfy. I also did not understand how something would become something else all of the sudden) thank you for making it so clear.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

Hi Alex,
I agree, but to complete your post
Kilij is a sword in Turkish, no more.
"Pronounced curve and yelman", I guess you describe a pala
Best,
Kubur

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Kilij is a sword in Turkish, no more.

Maybe in Turkey but not for many English speaking people with an interest in Ottomans swords, the term "kilij" in our times has come to refer to a specific type of hilt on an Ottoman sword.

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Alex,
I agree, but to complete your post
Kilij is a sword in Turkish, no more.
"Pronounced curve and yelman", I guess you describe a pala
Best,
Kubur

I already mentioned that Kilij is Turkish word for sword (just as Saif is Arabic word for sword). Pala is a shorter and later version of Kilij.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Agree with Teodor, many of these have all kinds of blades, European and/or earlier blades. I saw a few with early wootz blades.

Do you think this blade is Persian, Caucasian, or could be Armenian(?).



Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

Hi Alex, Thanks for your comments, I am not sure where the blade was made I have been trying to match the stamp but without success so far.
Regards
Miguel

[Kubur]

I have seen some stamps like that on Persian qaddara.
One member said that these Persian blades are from Caucasus, but he's a not a reliable source on Persian weapons. But I come back to your blade, the question stays open, it could be from Persia or Caucasus (because of the groves similar to some shashqa).

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Agree with Teodor, many of these have all kinds of blades, European and/or earlier blades. I saw a few with early wootz blades.

Do you think this blade is Persian, Caucasian, or could be Armenian(?).



Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

Hi Alex, Thanks for your comments, I do not know where the blade was made and have been trying to match the stamp without success so far.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Yes, it's a beautiful Turkish officer sword, called also Turkish military sword.
I have one too that I'll post later.
But yours is better, with the stamp...
This kind of sword is from 1890-1910...Maybe yours is slightly early from 1870-1890...
I like the old and funny try to fix the guard.
Last point, it's not a shamshir, but a kilij in Turkish or a saif in Arabic.
Best,
Kubur

Hi Kubur, I'm just going on what I have seen types of this sword called, I certainly would not call it a Kilij or Saif as these names conjure up totally different types of sword to me even if your comments are correct, if anything the blade seems more sabre like.
Regards
Miguel

[O. Baskurt]

Hello Miguel very nice protected piece you have here belongs to time Sultan 2nd Abdülhamid times there was a cavalary unit called Ertuğrul Alayı and this sword we call in Turkey as Ertuğrul Alayı Kılıcı ( Sword of Ertuğrul Alayı) has a definitive crossguard is speacially made for this cavalary unit and hilt is slighly different ( but very smiliar ) than usual pear shaped pommel and blade is different than late period kilij and also used in another regions of Ottoman too. as i see the blade is as well original staying in your piece

with Best regards
O. Baskurt

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by O. Baskurt

Hello Miguel very nice protected piece you have here belongs to time Sultan 2nd Abdülhamid times there was a cavalary unit called Ertuğrul Alayı and this sword we call in Turkey as Ertuğrul Alayı Kılıcı ( Sword of Ertuğrul Alayı) has a definitive crossguard is speacially made for this cavalary unit and hilt is slighly different ( but very smiliar ) than usual pear shaped pommel and blade is different than late period kilij and also used in another regions of Ottoman too. as i see the blade is as well original staying in your piece

with Best regards
O. Baskurt

Hello Mr Baskurt and thank you for your very interesting and informative comments regarding my sword. I would ask you to forgive my lack of knowledge of Turkish history and would be grateful if you would be kind enough to advise me of the date that Sultan 2nd Abdulhamid ruled, also do you know what the blade stamp reads.
Best regards
Miguel

[O. Baskurt]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hello Mr Baskurt and thank you for your very interesting and informative comments regarding my sword. I would ask you to forgive my lack of knowledge of Turkish history and would be grateful if you would be kind enough to advise me of the date that Sultan 2nd Abdulhamid ruled, also do you know what the blade stamp reads.
Best regards
Miguel

Well i can not read the stamp because we are not using the same alphabet anymore it might be Arabic writings but i will download picture and will show my historician friends some of them know Ottoman language ( well it is basically nowadays turkish with mixture of persian and arabian but alphabet is Arabic ) about the date end of 19th century and beginning of 20th century it is not very long ago as Kubur showed i think his blade is more older than yours and kubur's sword maybe dressed in that fashion later on because this type used in Ottoman provinces except that unit and as well as some pashas ( lord of Ottoman ) of that time has this type of sword with gold and silver inlays and your blade is really significant type of that unit it has a slightly yelman (false edge) and 2 grooves 1 small 1 big so i can say all examples till nowadays from that unit shows the same exactly the same type with your sword

with my best regards
O. Baskurt

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by O. Baskurt

Well i can not read the stamp because we are not using the same alphabet anymore it might be Arabic writings but i will download picture and will show my historician friends some of them know Ottoman language ( well it is basically nowadays turkish with mixture of persian and arabian but alphabet is Arabic ) about the date end of 19th century and beginning of 20th century it is not very long ago as Kubur showed i think his blade is more older than yours and kubur's sword maybe dressed in that fashion later on because this type used in Ottoman provinces except that unit and as well as some pashas ( lord of Ottoman ) of that time has this type of sword with gold and silver inlays and your blade is really significant type of that unit it has a slightly yelman (false edge) and 2 grooves 1 small 1 big so i can say all examples till nowadays from that unit shows the same exactly the same type with your sword

with my best regards
O. Baskurt

Hello Mr Baskurt, Thank you very much for your reply. The information you have provided has been most informative, all I need now to put "the icing on the cake" is a translation of the stamp. Thank you once again.
Best regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by TVV

You are correct: definitely Ottoman and 19th century. I do believe this is one of the early military regulation patterns in the Ottoman army. It would appear that officers were allowed to keep heirloom blades and re-hilt them, as I have seen all kinds of blades with this hilt pattern.

Sincerely,
Teodor

Thanks for your comments Teodor I had a feeling that it may be military but was not aware of officers being able to keep their heirloom blades and re-hilt them which means that there must be a good variety of this sword with different blades, most interesting.
Regards
Miguel

[eftihis]

I think the sword discussed in the link bellow http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...european+blade fits in the discusion! It has a european blade with a pala hilt.