Basket hilted swords

Cathey · 18th October 2015, 01:42 AM

hi Guys

I have gone through all of my baskets and have nothing with a base like this one. If someone out there has one similar, please post for comparison. Very nice sword though and extremely unusual hilt configuration overall.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

ulfberth · 19th October 2015, 08:30 AM

Thanks for your comment Catey,
I'm having concerns about the way the hilt is riveted on to the guard plate, and I could nor find an other basket hilt made this way.
For the moment this remains a mystery and I'm wondering if this is a military assembly or a later composite sword.
kind regards

Ulfberth

E.B. Erickson · 24th October 2015, 07:41 AM

When I saw Ulfberth's sword, it set off bells in my head - but where had I seen that before? Figured it out. Wood's book has one, and so does Mazansky.
Mazansky p.188 has a hilt just like the one in Ulfberth's photos. Differences: pommel is nicer on Ulfberth's, and the one in Mazansky has screws instead of rivets. Ulfbeth's also looks like the shield (Mazansky's terminology) has been modified.
I'd post a scan, but I don't have a scanner, so I'll leave that to someone else.

Mazansky notes a possible French connection (not the Gene Hackman version), with possible manufacture dates of late 17-early 1800s, but also notes that this remains to be proven.

I need to post the rest of my baskets in this thread.

--ElJay

ulfberth · 24th October 2015, 07:18 PM

Hi Eljay,

thank you for pointing this out, If someone could take a picture or a scan it would give an idea.
In the meanwhile I found a similar basket hilt in Museo delle Armi Antiche di San Marino .
This one has a blade with a blade with a double fuller but the pommel and the hilt are identical .

kind regards

Ulfberth

Cathey · 25th October 2015, 12:28 AM

Hi Guys

Rex took a photo of page 188 (see attached) and certainly looks extremely similar. I agree with the view that his one is probably of French manufacture perhaps for a Scottish exile hence the unusual hilt configuration.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

ulfberth · 25th October 2015, 09:09 AM

Hi Catey

Thanks for posting the picture of the Mazansky book, I think this is as close as it gets.
We have seen three almost identical hilts and in all three the guard fits on the base plate pierced and attached by either a riveted method or or secured by bolted nuts.
The one in the Italian museum does not have these bolts and seems riveted to.
I think we can conclude this is not a composite but the way this type of basket hilts were constructed.

Thanks all for you help!

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 25th October 2015, 04:38 PM

I agree with Ulfberth, this is compelling to see three examples similar of what seems an anomalous form of these basket hilts, showing a certain degree of consistency in the guard piercings and other components.

What is most interesting is the note as referenced in Mazansky (p.188) which suggests (as per Stephen Wood formerly of United Services Museum) that these may have been fashioned for Jacobites in exile in France at end of 18th c. While not proven, this does seem a highly plausible suggestion.

The blades which appear on these as far as I can tell appear of mid to latter 18th c forms consistant with post Culloden cavalry dragoon swords. These, whch were often if not typically of German mfg. would have been quite available in France in these times.

The curious piercings seem to be representative of many used on the Scottish hilts traditionally produced (the unusual 'shield' form) along with some which do not as far as I know occur on them, but if not mistaken, are among mysterious alleged Jacobite symbols. Case in point, the five point star, which I believe I have seen referred to as Jacobite, but its direct symbolism unknown. It may have been Masonic, as connections between Scottish and French lodges are well established, in many cases I believe transcended many political issues.

The striated tall cone pommel seems atypical but most aligned with Mazansky typology (IIIb, p.27), on two of the examples Ulfberht shows and the low dome with capstan form in the Mazansky reference somewhat aligns with form shown in his groups, but lacks the rounded base.
The integral lip around the tall cone examples is notably unusual in my view.

At this point, I am wondering if perhaps there might be references outside our sources which might have reference to French versions of Scottish basket hilts? I do not have the Aries series, but possibly there might be reference there?
Beyond that, possibly some French types of sword motif might carry some similarities to these?

While the Jacobite cause effectively ended at Culloden Moor in 1746 with that tragic defeat, naturally that idealism did not, and was carried with its followers fleeing the wrath of the Hanoverian machine. It certainly seems likely that these followers carried on in France, along with Prince Charles, though no further attempt was made to regain the throne.

This is one of the most interesting aspects of studying these arms, to have these often poignant stories told by them, and to preserve them .

18th October 2015, 01:42 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Unusual base to Basket hilt hi Guys I have gone through all of my baskets and have nothing with a base like this one. If someone out there has one similar, please post for comparison. Very nice sword though and extremely unusual hilt configuration overall. Cheers Cathey and Rex

24th October 2015, 07:18 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Hi Eljay, thank you for pointing this out, If someone could take a picture or a scan it would give an idea. In the meanwhile I found a similar basket hilt in Museo delle Armi Antiche di San Marino . This one has a blade with a blade with a double fuller but the pommel and the hilt are identical . kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

25th October 2015, 12:28 AM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Mazansky p.188 Hi Guys Rex took a photo of page 188 (see attached) and certainly looks extremely similar. I agree with the view that his one is probably of French manufacture perhaps for a Scottish exile hence the unusual hilt configuration. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

19th October 2015, 08:30 AM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Thanks for your comment Catey, I'm having concerns about the way the hilt is riveted on to the guard plate, and I could nor find an other basket hilt made this way. For the moment this remains a mystery and I'm wondering if this is a military assembly or a later composite sword. kind regards Ulfberth

24th October 2015, 07:41 AM	#3
E.B. Erickson Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 61	When I saw Ulfberth's sword, it set off bells in my head - but where had I seen that before? Figured it out. Wood's book has one, and so does Mazansky. Mazansky p.188 has a hilt just like the one in Ulfberth's photos. Differences: pommel is nicer on Ulfberth's, and the one in Mazansky has screws instead of rivets. Ulfbeth's also looks like the shield (Mazansky's terminology) has been modified. I'd post a scan, but I don't have a scanner, so I'll leave that to someone else. Mazansky notes a possible French connection (not the Gene Hackman version), with possible manufacture dates of late 17-early 1800s, but also notes that this remains to be proven. I need to post the rest of my baskets in this thread. --ElJay

25th October 2015, 09:09 AM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Hi Catey Thanks for posting the picture of the Mazansky book, I think this is as close as it gets. We have seen three almost identical hilts and in all three the guard fits on the base plate pierced and attached by either a riveted method or or secured by bolted nuts. The one in the Italian museum does not have these bolts and seems riveted to. I think we can conclude this is not a composite but the way this type of basket hilts were constructed. Thanks all for you help! Kind regards Ulfberth

25th October 2015, 04:38 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	I agree with Ulfberth, this is compelling to see three examples similar of what seems an anomalous form of these basket hilts, showing a certain degree of consistency in the guard piercings and other components. What is most interesting is the note as referenced in Mazansky (p.188) which suggests (as per Stephen Wood formerly of United Services Museum) that these may have been fashioned for Jacobites in exile in France at end of 18th c. While not proven, this does seem a highly plausible suggestion. The blades which appear on these as far as I can tell appear of mid to latter 18th c forms consistant with post Culloden cavalry dragoon swords. These, whch were often if not typically of German mfg. would have been quite available in France in these times. The curious piercings seem to be representative of many used on the Scottish hilts traditionally produced (the unusual 'shield' form) along with some which do not as far as I know occur on them, but if not mistaken, are among mysterious alleged Jacobite symbols. Case in point, the five point star, which I believe I have seen referred to as Jacobite, but its direct symbolism unknown. It may have been Masonic, as connections between Scottish and French lodges are well established, in many cases I believe transcended many political issues. The striated tall cone pommel seems atypical but most aligned with Mazansky typology (IIIb, p.27), on two of the examples Ulfberht shows and the low dome with capstan form in the Mazansky reference somewhat aligns with form shown in his groups, but lacks the rounded base. The integral lip around the tall cone examples is notably unusual in my view. At this point, I am wondering if perhaps there might be references outside our sources which might have reference to French versions of Scottish basket hilts? I do not have the Aries series, but possibly there might be reference there? Beyond that, possibly some French types of sword motif might carry some similarities to these? While the Jacobite cause effectively ended at Culloden Moor in 1746 with that tragic defeat, naturally that idealism did not, and was carried with its followers fleeing the wrath of the Hanoverian machine. It certainly seems likely that these followers carried on in France, along with Prince Charles, though no further attempt was made to regain the throne. This is one of the most interesting aspects of studying these arms, to have these often poignant stories told by them, and to preserve them .