Tesche Small Sword or Rapier

David R · 17th October 2015, 01:20 PM

Perhaps it went through the hands of one of these men at some point. It is easy to forget that pre 20th century the whole World ran on what we would now describe as Third World economics. Nothing thrown away that could be used, remade, recycled or moved on for a modest profit. The original hilt could have been silver, and so knocked off and sold as bullion.

M ELEY · 17th October 2015, 06:13 PM

I agree with Ulfberth as far as a gentleman's sword. I would venture the possibility that it might be Spanish colonial in origin. If so, it would still be a "composite", but one of the contemporary period made for the constraints of a provincial locale that made due with the parts they had available to them. German sword smiths were continuously selling their wares to the Spanish and English craftsman all the time. I used to have a Spanish broadsword with the classic marking "Do not draw me without reason..." motto (in Spanish) by a well-known German maker (their marking and Solingen on blade. I likewise found an old copy of their workmanship being shipped to S. America). Likewise, the hilt/guard strikes me as Spanish colonial in its simplicity, functionality, and open style. The crude finials, with their simple line and cross design, screams Span-colonial to me. In Brincherhoff's volume, we see these patterns on some of the swords pictured. Likewise, Brazilian espada ancha (discussed on this forum in the past) has the same type of line/star patterning and 'C' shapes to their guards (and I do mean the exact same C shape!). I would guess that it might be later (mid-18th) despite its earlier pattern given that Span colonial pieces frequently were behind the times when it came to form (case in point, bilbos and cuphilts still being used in the Americas as late as the first quarter of the 19th c.)

Check out the thread from this forum "On the origin of the so-called Berber sabers" and take a look at Dmitri's shell guard, complete with 'C's. I've seen this patterning on these types of Span colonial pieces frequently.

Mark

Jim McDougall · 18th October 2015, 05:26 AM

Ulfberth brings up very good points on the combining of a quality blade and the cruder components seen here.

I think that Mark has very valid points concerning these crudely fashioned components, and the idea that this might fall into the incredibly wide spectrum of these kinds of weapons in Spain's colonies.

As noted, the crude work on the bilobate guard seems fashioned after smallsword shapes, but clearly is not of such quality. The interesting motif of alternating semi arc punches is indeed seen in variation on other known Spanish colonial weapons.
The quillon block and stubby paddle like quillons seem as if from those on a hirshfanger , and of course incongruent with the bilobate shell guard.
I have seen Mexican multi bar hilts with disc type base, with redundant cross guards underneath in this same manner.

As I look at the curious chop mark style motif on the quillons, they remind me of the stamped marks from lead ballast bars used in the early ships of sail, and often on the bars of bullion. Again, these kinds of marking seem to occur in rudimentary fashion on the blacksmith quality fabrications of these colonial outposts.

It does seem unlikely that a quality Solingen blade from this maker would have filtered into the trade networks entering the Spanish Main and its ports of call. It is well known that Solingen was producing many blades for Spain and its colonies, with many using spurious Toledo stamps and makers names in the latter 17th century , well through the 18th.

The espada ancha of the Spanish colonial frontiers was fashioned after the hangers of 17th century Europe and England.As the smallsword of the 18th century evolved, it was of course likely the inspiration in similar manner for many colonial artisans fashioning court type swords for the status conscious officials and aristocrats of these remote places.

Purely speculation of course, but of reasonable plausibility considering these elements.

ulfberth · 18th October 2015, 06:17 PM

Hi Mark and jim,

I agree as you pointed out, the guard plate is indeed of Spanish colonial style, however the smith who forged the guard plate with the C marks would at the same time carved these C marks on the pommel.
Like Jim said it is unlikely that a blade of this quality was originally ordered for this guard.
When did these three different components find each other ?
Were they put together from used parts to make a weapon for the colonies ?
This could very well be and is likely the case, however I find it unlikely that the person who assembled these parts is also the maker of them , because if he was than the pommel and the guard plate would have the same C marks.
Still, this small sword can be of historical value as a re using of old parts and as David well pointed out was perhaps purely done for economical reasons.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

17th October 2015, 01:20 PM	#1
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Perhaps it went through the hands of one of these men at some point. It is easy to forget that pre 20th century the whole World ran on what we would now describe as Third World economics. Nothing thrown away that could be used, remade, recycled or moved on for a modest profit. The original hilt could have been silver, and so knocked off and sold as bullion. Attached Images

17th October 2015, 06:13 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I agree with Ulfberth as far as a gentleman's sword. I would venture the possibility that it might be Spanish colonial in origin. If so, it would still be a "composite", but one of the contemporary period made for the constraints of a provincial locale that made due with the parts they had available to them. German sword smiths were continuously selling their wares to the Spanish and English craftsman all the time. I used to have a Spanish broadsword with the classic marking "Do not draw me without reason..." motto (in Spanish) by a well-known German maker (their marking and Solingen on blade. I likewise found an old copy of their workmanship being shipped to S. America). Likewise, the hilt/guard strikes me as Spanish colonial in its simplicity, functionality, and open style. The crude finials, with their simple line and cross design, screams Span-colonial to me. In Brincherhoff's volume, we see these patterns on some of the swords pictured. Likewise, Brazilian espada ancha (discussed on this forum in the past) has the same type of line/star patterning and 'C' shapes to their guards (and I do mean the exact same C shape!). I would guess that it might be later (mid-18th) despite its earlier pattern given that Span colonial pieces frequently were behind the times when it came to form (case in point, bilbos and cuphilts still being used in the Americas as late as the first quarter of the 19th c.) Check out the thread from this forum "On the origin of the so-called Berber sabers" and take a look at Dmitri's shell guard, complete with 'C's. I've seen this patterning on these types of Span colonial pieces frequently. Mark Last edited by M ELEY; 17th October 2015 at 06:31 PM.

18th October 2015, 05:26 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Ulfberth brings up very good points on the combining of a quality blade and the cruder components seen here. I think that Mark has very valid points concerning these crudely fashioned components, and the idea that this might fall into the incredibly wide spectrum of these kinds of weapons in Spain's colonies. As noted, the crude work on the bilobate guard seems fashioned after smallsword shapes, but clearly is not of such quality. The interesting motif of alternating semi arc punches is indeed seen in variation on other known Spanish colonial weapons. The quillon block and stubby paddle like quillons seem as if from those on a hirshfanger , and of course incongruent with the bilobate shell guard. I have seen Mexican multi bar hilts with disc type base, with redundant cross guards underneath in this same manner. As I look at the curious chop mark style motif on the quillons, they remind me of the stamped marks from lead ballast bars used in the early ships of sail, and often on the bars of bullion. Again, these kinds of marking seem to occur in rudimentary fashion on the blacksmith quality fabrications of these colonial outposts. It does seem unlikely that a quality Solingen blade from this maker would have filtered into the trade networks entering the Spanish Main and its ports of call. It is well known that Solingen was producing many blades for Spain and its colonies, with many using spurious Toledo stamps and makers names in the latter 17th century , well through the 18th. The espada ancha of the Spanish colonial frontiers was fashioned after the hangers of 17th century Europe and England.As the smallsword of the 18th century evolved, it was of course likely the inspiration in similar manner for many colonial artisans fashioning court type swords for the status conscious officials and aristocrats of these remote places. Purely speculation of course, but of reasonable plausibility considering these elements.

18th October 2015, 06:17 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 412	Hi Mark and jim, I agree as you pointed out, the guard plate is indeed of Spanish colonial style, however the smith who forged the guard plate with the C marks would at the same time carved these C marks on the pommel. Like Jim said it is unlikely that a blade of this quality was originally ordered for this guard. When did these three different components find each other ? Were they put together from used parts to make a weapon for the colonies ? This could very well be and is likely the case, however I find it unlikely that the person who assembled these parts is also the maker of them , because if he was than the pommel and the guard plate would have the same C marks. Still, this small sword can be of historical value as a re using of old parts and as David well pointed out was perhaps purely done for economical reasons. Kind regards Ulfberth