On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

Jens Nordlunde · 10th October 2015, 04:24 PM

It is an interesting subject you have started, but a somewhat complicated one at the same time.
Under 'Pata'. The Tarikh-i-Husain Shahi was written about 1580, and about this time several of the states started to chang/or had already changed the language from Persian or Turkish to devangiri/tulu or other languages.
We must expect that Imam ud-din Husaini Chishti, about two centuries later, must have been aware of this, as the same word can mean different things in different languages.
Another thing is, that we dont know when those word started to be used for a weapon, or if it before that had another meaning.

To give you an idea of what I mean. I have a hunting sword, centuries later than the time discussed now. There is an inscription in Arabic letters, where the word 'Bahar' can be seen. In Farsi 'Bahar' means 'spring', but in Urdu it means 'plentiful'.

Looking forward to see other posts on this subject.

Jens

Mercenary · 10th October 2015, 04:57 PM

I have got it!!!!!!!! I'm absolutely sure of it, and I can prove it!!!
"Phul-katara" it is WOOTZ BLADE!!!!!!!!

Mercenary · 10th October 2015, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Under 'Pata'. The Tarikh-i-Husain Shahi was written about 1580, and about this time several of the states started to chang/or had already changed the language from Persian or Turkish to devangiri/tulu or other languages.
We must expect that Imam ud-din Husaini Chishti, about two centuries later, must have been aware of this, as the same word can mean different things in different languages.
Jens

Of course. I am searching through meny sources and clearly aware of the differences and difficulties. You are quite right it is very difficult to say anything for sure. But in the article (I hope it will be available soon) I found out something about "pata". I hope so. )))

Jens Nordlunde · 11th October 2015, 12:27 PM

About the article in post one. The author writes. "From two independent sources the descriptions of traditional martial practices in Muslim Lucknow, which ceased to exist by the late 19th century, are known." It would have been interesting to know, which two indipendent sources the author refers to.
Under katar. A pity it is not mentioned where Egerton wrote that the katars origin from Nepal and when.

In the article 'How Old is the Katar?', the Journal of Royal Armoury, Leeds. Vol. 10, no 1, 2013, it is taken back to Orissa in the 10th or 11th century.
As the Orissa katar is very primitive I would regard Deccan/South India as the place of origin.

Looking forward to see what you have found out about the 'Phul-katara'.
Elgood in his book Hindu Arms and Ritual writes on page 258. "Thackston (1999) writes there were two types of punch dagger: katar or katara, the utilitarian fighting weapon of the Mughals. Phul means flower, a reference to its decoration."

Mercenary · 11th October 2015, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

About the article in post one. The author writes. "From two independent sources the descriptions of traditional martial practices in Muslim Lucknow, which ceased to exist by the late 19th century, are known." It would have been interesting to know, which two indipendent sources the author refers to[/i]

Dear Jens
I can not put all the article here . It was published in Russian journal and I hope will be soon published in English. But I can write to you in PM.

Quote:

Under katar. A pity it is not mentioned where Egerton wrote that the katars origin from Nepal and when.

Robert Elgood in "Hindu Arms And Ritual", p. 163 wrote "For many years they were attributed to Nepal on the basis of a purchase and attribution by Egerton". Further it is very well written that this kind of dagers rather "a conservative survival".
Oh... I am sorry. In the article it is not about "jamdhar" but simple "katar" or "katari". It is about Egerton's #345 and others like it. Of course, I have got your article.

Quote:

Looking forward to see what you have found out about the 'Phul-katara'.

I will add this part of text to the article in English. May be after translate I will put this part right here.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th October 2015, 08:55 PM

Thank you for your answer.
I believe that the katar origins from the south. Stuard Welsh and others believed so too. But for me it is a believe, till I am convinced it origined from somewhere else.
Researching Indian weapons or weapon names is a passion, where the outcome of the research is not always sure. You can work for a long time, and reach a point where you believe in something, but this does not mean that what you believe in is correct, so you have to go on searching, till you can prove what you believe in.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2015, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Thank you for your answer.
I believe that the katar origins from the south. Stuard Welsh and others believed so too. But for me it is a believe, till I am convinced it origined from somewhere else.
Researching Indian weapons or weapon names is a passion, where the outcome of the research is not always sure. You can work for a long time, and reach a point where you believe in something, but this does not mean that what you believe in is correct, so you have to go on searching, till you can prove what you believe in.
Jens

Very, very well said Jens.

Timo Nieminen · 12th October 2015, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Researching Indian weapons or weapon names is a passion, where the outcome of the research is not always sure.

In English, we tend to borrow terms used in other languages and apply them to a specific category of weapon. This is very common, and it teaches us to expect that specific categories of weapons have specific, and fixed, names.

But the words we borrow are often much more generic in their original languages. For example, "gladius" in English means "Roman short sword", and in Latin just means "sword", generically. For example, in Curtius Rufus' "History of Alexander", "Copidas vocabant gladios leviter curvatos, falcibus similes" which we can translate as "They call their lightly-curved sickle-like gladius a "kopis"". While the Romans were happy to call a kopis a "gladius", this doesn't work in English.

If we were trying to find about the evolution of the Roman gladius via literature, we might be misled by sources like this.

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/curtius/curtius8.shtml

mrcjgscott · 12th October 2015, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

You can work for a long time, and reach a point where you believe in something, but this does not mean that what you believe in is correct, so you have to go on searching, till you can prove what you believe in.
Jens

Very true Jens!

Just when I convince myself something is certain, is usually the moment I realise how much further I need to go to prove my conviction.

It is so important to keep an open mind, and continue the search.

Jens Nordlunde · 12th October 2015, 09:52 AM

In Robert Elgood's book Arma and Armour at the Jaypur Court. The Royal Collection, Robert gives several examples, like on page 216.

Mace. Shashpar (sash in Persian means six - a six-flanged mace). Rajput courts would have seen this as a destinctly Mughal weapon.
If a bladed weapon was added at the top of the mace, would today be called a gurz with a zaghnol mounted at the top. Other Rajput names for a mace are musala or parigha.

My guess is that the Muslims had several words for the same weapon, depending on if they were under Persian, Turkish or maybe Mongol influence.
The Hindus would also have different names for the same weapon, but that would likely have something to do with where in the country they lived, and which language they spoke.
Jens

Mercenary · 12th October 2015, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Looking forward to see what you have found out about the 'Phul-katara'.[/i]

"...Jahangir already gives a clear definition of the push dagger as a "jamdhar", as far as one can understand from the descriptions he makes of their use. At the same time, in Jahangir`s memoirs and other sources appear daggers with a "phul-katara" (a jeweled khapwa with a phul-katara). It is pointed out that apart from the something (of course hilt or sheath, not blade) studded with gems, the dagger has a "costly phul-katara" . The term "katara" - "cut"- leaves no doubt that it is the blade that the term in question is applied to. The meaning of the word "phul" - "flower", "flowery", “flourished” is etymologically related to the meanings "flowerage", "floral decorations" or "artistically done". It may also be assumed that blades decorated with carving, koftgari, or merely skillfully made ones, are meant. However by the 19th century, the term "phul" already defines a head of spear, sabre and dagger blade , and later merely a "sharp blade". That being said, it would be most likely to suppose that implied are flowery, patterned blades, that is the wootz, watered steel ones.
It should also be noted that there was a custom to call objects according to the blade material. So, for example, the term "sukhela" is not a distinct weapon type, but refers to the fact that the blade is made of "sukhela" - a combination of soft and hard iron, or, according to some sources, an inexpensive wootz steel type..."

Mercenary · 13th January 2016, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

It should also be noted that there was a custom to call objects according to the blade material. So, for example, the term "sukhela" is not a distinct weapon type, but refers to the fact that the blade is made of "sukhela" - a combination of soft and hard iron, or, according to some sources, an inexpensive wootz steel type..."

Not everything I wrote was the wild delirium, isn't it?
With "phul katara", too, need to wait a bit...

Jens Nordlunde · 13th January 2016, 06:23 PM

Please Mercenary and others - when you show a quote - let us know from where it is. The title, The author, the publisher, the date of publishing and the page from where it is taken. Thank you very much.

Mercenary · 13th January 2016, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Please Mercenary and others - when you show a quote - let us know from where it is. The title, The author, the publisher, the date of publishing and the page from where it is taken. Thank you very much.

I am sorry. I thought that all have already read this wonderful article, the link to which estcrh kindly gave in the thread "European blades in India"

https://books.google.com/books?id=i...epage&q&f=false
Robert Elgood
Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries: Their Manufacture and the Influence of European Imports
in
Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar
Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687
pp. 218-233
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2011
p.224

10th October 2015, 04:24 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It is an interesting subject you have started, but a somewhat complicated one at the same time. Under 'Pata'. The Tarikh-i-Husain Shahi was written about 1580, and about this time several of the states started to chang/or had already changed the language from Persian or Turkish to devangiri/tulu or other languages. We must expect that Imam ud-din Husaini Chishti, about two centuries later, must have been aware of this, as the same word can mean different things in different languages. Another thing is, that we dont know when those word started to be used for a weapon, or if it before that had another meaning. To give you an idea of what I mean. I have a hunting sword, centuries later than the time discussed now. There is an inscription in Arabic letters, where the word 'Bahar' can be seen. In Farsi 'Bahar' means 'spring', but in Urdu it means 'plentiful'. Looking forward to see other posts on this subject. Jens

10th October 2015, 04:57 PM	#2
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	I have got it!!!!!!!! I'm absolutely sure of it, and I can prove it!!! "Phul-katara" it is WOOTZ BLADE!!!!!!!!

11th October 2015, 12:27 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	About the article in post one. The author writes. "From two independent sources the descriptions of traditional martial practices in Muslim Lucknow, which ceased to exist by the late 19th century, are known." It would have been interesting to know, which two indipendent sources the author refers to. Under katar. A pity it is not mentioned where Egerton wrote that the katars origin from Nepal and when. In the article 'How Old is the Katar?', the Journal of Royal Armoury, Leeds. Vol. 10, no 1, 2013, it is taken back to Orissa in the 10th or 11th century. As the Orissa katar is very primitive I would regard Deccan/South India as the place of origin. Looking forward to see what you have found out about the 'Phul-katara'. Elgood in his book Hindu Arms and Ritual writes on page 258. "Thackston (1999) writes there were two types of punch dagger: katar or katara, the utilitarian fighting weapon of the Mughals. Phul means flower, a reference to its decoration."

11th October 2015, 08:55 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for your answer. I believe that the katar origins from the south. Stuard Welsh and others believed so too. But for me it is a believe, till I am convinced it origined from somewhere else. Researching Indian weapons or weapon names is a passion, where the outcome of the research is not always sure. You can work for a long time, and reach a point where you believe in something, but this does not mean that what you believe in is correct, so you have to go on searching, till you can prove what you believe in. Jens

12th October 2015, 09:52 AM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In Robert Elgood's book Arma and Armour at the Jaypur Court. The Royal Collection, Robert gives several examples, like on page 216. Mace. Shashpar (sash in Persian means six - a six-flanged mace). Rajput courts would have seen this as a destinctly Mughal weapon. If a bladed weapon was added at the top of the mace, would today be called a gurz with a zaghnol mounted at the top. Other Rajput names for a mace are musala or parigha. My guess is that the Muslims had several words for the same weapon, depending on if they were under Persian, Turkish or maybe Mongol influence. The Hindus would also have different names for the same weapon, but that would likely have something to do with where in the country they lived, and which language they spoke. Jens

13th January 2016, 06:23 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Please Mercenary and others - when you show a quote - let us know from where it is. The title, The author, the publisher, the date of publishing and the page from where it is taken. Thank you very much.