Kris question to the knowledgeables

[nechesh]

Pusaka, it would do you well to stop....breathe....read.....and comprehend what someone has said before you respond.
Mabagani is referring to the Moro KRIS, not the Indonesian KERIS, when he speaks of Islamic roots in it's development. I don't think anyone here would argue that the keris did not exist in pre-Islamic Indonesia.
The weapon which started this thread is a Moro KRIS. At this forum we tend to distinguish between this and it's Indonesian cousin through spelling differences. The Indonesian KERIS dagger and the Moro KRIS sword.
BTW, a wavy blade does not a keris make. The blades Indra holds in the pic you posted do not have the characteristics that make a blade a keris. Actually the first keris were, indeed, straight blades, so this pic really proves nothing.
I must confess, i really don't know enough about silat to be too sure of it's origins, but it has been my understanding that it is a relatively recent form. Can you show any ancient accounts to prove otherwise. I know plenty of modern Wiccans who like to think they are practicing the "old religion" when it is basically the invention of Gerald Gardner (also an avid keris collector) in the early 20thC. And Rosicrusions love to point to their ancient Egyptian heritage when their lodges probably developed out of 18thC mystical thinking and masonry. So do we have any real evidence that Silat is more than a couple of hundred years old?

[Federico]

Not much to add, I agree with Mabagani's points (whats new).

Though I would add, to add even more confusion to the mix (again whats new), there is a strong possibility that meaning has changed over time. Eg. when the keris first began to shift into the kris perhaps there was one meaning (eg. elephant and dragon), but in later kris perhaps the meaning has changed. Particularly since there are many forms of fretwork that are not dragon-esque or curly or etc...

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Federico

Not much to add, I agree with Mabagani's points (whats new).

Though I would add, to add even more confusion to the mix (again whats new), there is a strong possibility that meaning has changed over time. Eg. when the keris first began to shift into the kris perhaps there was one meaning (eg. elephant and dragon), but in later kris perhaps the meaning has changed. Particularly since there are many forms of fretwork that are not dragon-esque or curly or etc...

Yes its meaning has changed from what it was originally meant to convey but I was talking more about it original meaning. Actually I’m not sure changed is the correct word, I would say lost.

[MABAGANI]

No problem Pusaka, your insights regarding the keris are enlightening and help me with perspective.

We all know the martial arts originated with the homosapiens domination over the neanderthal or was that alien intervention too.lol

btw who practices any form of silat here? i for one.

[Pusaka]

I’m sorry If I misunderstood what was being said but I have to say that I have heard people say that the Indonesian Keris is an Islamic Weapon too, so I was eager to clear that up because I really don’t believe that.

About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one

If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female,
The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other. This is what my research has lead me to personally believe but I accept that lots has been lost over time. If anyone else has any other Idea about what it symbolically represents I would love to hear it.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one

If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female,
The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other.

I just need to point out again Pusaka, that the original keris form is NOT the wavy blade of which you speak, but a straight one. In fact most keris are straight (perhaps 2 in 3), so this back and forth dualist explanation doesn't really fly.
I think that as long as you are tying the keris and it's origins in with silat then this a a very appropriate place to discuss the origins of silat. I personally think the keris is much older than silat and that forms of keris fighting that are taught in silat are relatively new. So i wonder if there is any written evidence (old manuals, mention in old texts, etc.) that can make the connection between silat and the keris in ancient times.

[MABAGANI]

Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?

Well, i'd have to see the carvings. There certainly are a whole lote of straight edged weapons out there. Can you suggest a place to see photographs of these carvings or possibly post some?

[MABAGANI]

I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

Thanks, i've seen that book for sale, i'll have to look into it.

[Pusaka]

One other thing I would like to draw your attention to is that the Keris handle although it has been defaced it still has the original symbolic meaning, A man slightly bent over, hands resting on his stomach in meditation.