dagger series nr4 THE BALLOCK

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st October 2015, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

@Ibrahiim,
not mentioning the source and content was actually not indicative for the maryrose relics.
it was more the lack of citation of the art pictures of your post 15 and 16.
evidently also drawings from the 20th century which are rarely representative for medieval, 14th and 15th century arms.

Also the ballock type of post 1 does not apply on those images, however some nice other types do.
with the different dagger threads, I (try to) make a distinction between the various daggers, so also between different ballock daggers.
the type of what is being discussed here has a distinct geometric multistage blade, all likelihood resulting from the dagger legislation in the cities.
I was hoping for more examples and details of this specific type.
(attachment is from collection of Dutch army museum)

best,
Jasper

This is the first mention you have made of #15 and #16. I consider these pictures relevant only as background interest information..Like the excellent artwork for the Mary Rose ...
You may wish to construct them into a portfolio and in which case they can easily be traced...The computer went off line and when I re engaged the machinery they couldnt be retraced. Note that I placed a first picture which unfortunately reorganised itself in another part of the post where I indicate "The first picture shows a set of differing styles for comparison".. Note that I don't write only in the exact blinkered brackets of precisely one steriotype but may on occasions absorb and illustrate other interrelated forms as development and comparison ...and where blades morph and change down the ages. A great example is the development of the Scottish Dirk. That is how I perceive Forum...and for meaningful discussion.

This is Medieval Artwork and as such is not copyrighted being hundreds of years old...even taking the date of copyright early in the 20th C ...Meanwhile I will continue to search for the source and if I find it /them I will post...or let you know...

I note from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollock_dagger The bollock dagger or ballock knife is a type of dagger with a distinctively shaped shaft, with two oval swellings at the guard resembling male testes ("bollocks"). The guard is often in one piece with the wooden grip, and reinforced on top with a shaped metal washer. The dagger was popular in Scandinavia, Flanders, Wales, Scotland and England between the 13th and 18th centuries, in particular the Tudor period. Within Briton the bollock dagger was commonly carried by many, including Border Reivers, as a backup for the lance and the sword. A large number of such weapons were found aboard the wreck of the Mary Rose. The bollock dagger is the predecessor to the Scottish dirk.

In the Victorian period weapon historians introduced the term kidney dagger, due to the two lobes at the guard, which could also be seen as kidney-shaped, in order to avoid any sexual connotation. (Blair 1962).

The hilt was often constructed of box root (dudgeon) in the 16th and 17th centuries, and the dagger was sometimes called dudgeon dagger or dudgeonhafted dagger in this period.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

cornelistromp · 1st October 2015, 03:10 PM

thank you, I know what a ballock dagger is because I have a few( around 20-25 pcs) in my collection.such a general definition on wikipedia tells me personally not so much.

I do not think I can explain it to you but try it anyway.
Because this thread is about a specific style of Ballock dagger held in Netherlands, Germany and Flanders between 1390-1460 . (some other types ballocks I have put in another thread) I hope the comments and placed images may focus somewhat on this type and/or period.

further, it is good if we refer to the illustrations in the text, so what is it andwhat is the relevance of the images to the topic.
The Mary Rose and dagger examples are here btw well in place.

furthermore if it fails it is not a big disaster but in terms of quality of information provision of this thread a bit too general.

best,
Jasper

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st October 2015, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

thank you, I know what a ballock dagger is because I have a few( around 20-25 pcs) in my collection.such a general definition on wikipedia tells me personally not so much.

I do not think I can explain it to you but try it anyway.
Because this thread is about a specific style of Ballock dagger held in Netherlands, Germany and Flanders between 1390-1460 . (some other types ballocks I have put in another thread) I hope the comments and placed images may focus somewhat on this type and/or period.

further, it is good if we refer to the illustrations in the text, so what is it andwhat is the relevance of the images to the topic.
The Mary Rose and dagger examples are here btw well in place.

furthermore if it fails it is not a big disaster but in terms of quality of information provision of this thread a bit too general.

best,
Jasper

I dont think threads fail. This one is only at 30 replies and is but young. OK lets accommodate your great idea about focusing on the type you call THE BALLOCK. Germany, Flanders and Netherlands....

Straightaway we run into deep water ...The weapon is very firmly also English and gave rise to the Scottish Dirk... It can be seen at various references with the same or similar flavour such as at https://www.knife-depot.com/knife-information-163.html where it can be observed...Quote"Possibly the manliest of daggers, the bollock dagger has two oval swellings at the tip of its shaft resembling the male genitalia. This dagger was popular in England and Scotland between the 13th and 18th centuries and was commonly carried by outlaws and raiders". (I remember this from my studied about the Border Rievers ...)

"In the Victorian period, historians called the dagger the kidney dagger, because of the two lobes at the guard and in order to avoid sexual connotations. The bollock dagger is also the origin of the expression 'bollocking,' which means to give or receive chastisement".Unquote.

In defence of your stance on this I do acknowledge a note from http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-14195...r-ah-3271.aspx ...Quote"The Bollock Dagger was the civilian side arm of choice for most of Northern Europe from 1300 – 1550 and often seen on archers and occasionally on middle to higher classes".Unquote.

In so far as the source Wikepedia is concerned; it is a suitable baseline from which to advance and even if in part it is broad based and general it may be remembered that Forum is not only for knowledgeable participants but has a secondary and important role in addressing the subject to all the Forum...not just now but because of the way we collect information...for future study and reference. Do we therefor not have a duty to lay down as much information as we can?

Meanwhile, if I can find an excellent reference to European variants of this weapon I will post it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

cornelistromp · 1st October 2015, 08:10 PM

i have absolutely no idea what you want to say with the above and I find the given internet links far from sufficient reference.

in order to avoid further unnecessary discussion, I rest my case.

best wishes
jasper

fernando · 1st October 2015, 08:43 PM

Let us lock this thread for a little while.

fernando · 1st October 2015, 11:33 PM

Thread reopened.
Please carry on, Gentlemen.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd October 2015, 12:27 PM

Looking for Dutch variants...From The Encyclopedia Britannica... Quote"Frans Hals, (born 1581/85, Antwerp, Spanish Netherlands [now in Belgium]—died Aug. 29, 1666, Haarlem, Neth.), great 17th-century portraitist of the Dutch bourgeoisie of Haarlem, where he spent practically all his life. Hals evolved a technique that was close to Impressionism in its looseness, and he painted with increasing freedom as he grew older. The jovial spirit of his early work is typified by The Merry Company (c. 1616–17). In his middle age his portraits grew increasingly sad, revealing sometimes a sense of foreboding (e.g., Nicolaes Hasselaer, c. 1630–33). The paintings of his old age best show his genius for portraying character (e.g., Man in a Slouch Hat, c. 1660–66)".Unquote.

Although no Ballack daggers appear in this picture it gives the atmospheric impression that they are all wearing one !! and as a background reference on the sword style and dress; this gives a wonderful sense of the occasion...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd October 2015, 12:40 PM

To get the perspective right I have noted below the connection in parts of Northern Europe where the Ballack and other daggers developed. Finally this short note encompasses the development into the Scottish Dirk and from these notes you can see how that happened. This storyline takes the dagger up to the link with another part of its development creating a doorstep to... "The Bayonet".

Quote"Middle Ages.
(Further information: Misericorde (weapon) and Rondel dagger)
The term dagger appears only in the Late Middle Ages, reflecting the fact that while the dagger had been known in antiquity, it had disappeared during the Early Middle Ages, replaced by the hewing knife or seax.

Depiction of combat with the dagger (degen) in Hans Talhoffer (1467)
The dagger reappeared in the 12th century as the "knightly dagger", or more properly cross-hilt or quillon dagger, and was developed into a common arm and tool for civilian use by the late medieval period.

The earliest known depiction of a cross-hilt dagger is the so-called "Guido relief" inside the Grossmünster of Zürich (c. 1120). A number of depictions of the fully developed cross-hilt dagger are found in the Morgan Bible (c. 1240). Many of these cross-hilt daggers resemble miniature swords, with cross guards and pommels very similar in form to swords of the period. Others, however, are not an exact match to known sword designs, having for example pommel caps, large hollow star shaped pommels on so-called “Burgundian Heraldic daggers” or antenna style cross and pommel, reminiscent of Hallstatt era daggers. The cross-hilt type persisted well into the Renaissance.

The Old French term dague appears to have referred to these weapons in the 13th century, alongside other terms such as poignal and basilard. The Middle English dagger is used from the 1380s.

During this time, the dagger was often employed in the role of a secondary defense weapon in close combat. The knightly dagger evolved into the larger baselard knife in the 14th century. The baselard was considered an intermediate between a short sword and a long dagger, and became popular also as a civilian weapon. Sloane MS. 2593 (c. 1400) records a song satirizing the use of oversized baselard knives as fashion accessories.

In the Late Middle Ages, knives with blade designs that emphasized thrusting attacks, such as the stiletto, became increasingly popular, and some thrusting knives commonly referred to as 'daggers' ceased to have a cutting edge. This was a response to the deployment of heavy armor, such as maille and plate armour, where cutting attacks were ineffective and focus was on thrusts with narrow blades to punch through mail or aim at armour plate intersections (or the eye slits of the helmet visor). These late medieval thrusting weapons are sometimes classed by the shape of their hilt as either roundel, bollock or ear daggers. The term dagger is coined in this time, as are the Early Modern German equivalents dolch (tolch) and degen (tegen). In the German school of fencing, Johannes Liechtenauer (Ms. 3227a) and his successors (specifically Andres Lignizer in Cod. 44 A 8) taught fighting with the dagger.

These techniques in some respects resemble modern knife fighting, but emphasized thrusting strokes almost exclusively, instead of slashes and cuts. When used offensively, a standard attack frequently employed the reverse or icepick grip, stabbing downward with the blade to increase thrust and penetrative force. This was done primarily because the blade point frequently had to penetrate or push apart an opponent's steel chain mail or plate armor in order to inflict an injury. The disadvantage of employing the medieval dagger in this manner was that it could easily be blocked by a variety of techniques, most notably by a block with the weaponless arm while simultaneously attacking with a weapon held in the right hand. Another disadvantage was the reduction in effective blade reach to the opponent when using a reverse grip. As the wearing of armor fell out of favor, dagger fighting techniques began to evolve which emphasized the use of the dagger with a conventional or forward grip, while the reverse or icepick grip was retained when attacking an unsuspecting opponent from behind, such as in an assassination.

Renaissance and Early Modern era.
Further information: Stiletto, Parrying dagger and Dirk.

The dagger was very popular as a fencing and personal defense weapon in 17th- and 18th-century Spain, where it was referred to as the daga or puñal. During the Renaissance Age the dagger was used as part of everyday dress, and daggers were the only weapon commoners were allowed to carry on their person. In English, the terms poniard and dirk are loaned during the late 16th to early 17th century, the latter in the spelling dork, durk (presumably via Low German, Dutch or Scandinavian dolk, dolch, ultimately from a West Slavic tulich), the modern spelling dirk dating to 18th-century Scots".Unquote

Here are some dagger pictures from http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.18843.html

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2015, 09:56 PM

This thread is genuinely fascinating as I had not ever thought particularly about the ballock dagger being specifically differentiated regionally as a form. Apparently this is quite the case with these early examples shown by Jasper, and perhaps the thread might have been better titled 'Early ballock dagger forms from the Netherlands'.

It is most interesting to see more on the ballock dagger overall and in the forms outside this scope as well as other developments into associated dagger forms. Honestly I had not thought of the Highland dirk being indirectly descended from these kinds of daggers, and see the stylizing of the hilt reflecting the form.

2nd October 2015, 12:27 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Looking for Dutch variants...From The Encyclopedia Britannica... Quote"Frans Hals, (born 1581/85, Antwerp, Spanish Netherlands [now in Belgium]—died Aug. 29, 1666, Haarlem, Neth.), great 17th-century portraitist of the Dutch bourgeoisie of Haarlem, where he spent practically all his life. Hals evolved a technique that was close to Impressionism in its looseness, and he painted with increasing freedom as he grew older. The jovial spirit of his early work is typified by The Merry Company (c. 1616–17). In his middle age his portraits grew increasingly sad, revealing sometimes a sense of foreboding (e.g., Nicolaes Hasselaer, c. 1630–33). The paintings of his old age best show his genius for portraying character (e.g., Man in a Slouch Hat, c. 1660–66)".Unquote. Although no Ballack daggers appear in this picture it gives the atmospheric impression that they are all wearing one !! and as a background reference on the sword style and dress; this gives a wonderful sense of the occasion... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 2nd October 2015 at 12:43 PM.

2nd October 2015, 12:40 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	To get the perspective right I have noted below the connection in parts of Northern Europe where the Ballack and other daggers developed. Finally this short note encompasses the development into the Scottish Dirk and from these notes you can see how that happened. This storyline takes the dagger up to the link with another part of its development creating a doorstep to... "The Bayonet". Quote"Middle Ages. (Further information: Misericorde (weapon) and Rondel dagger) The term dagger appears only in the Late Middle Ages, reflecting the fact that while the dagger had been known in antiquity, it had disappeared during the Early Middle Ages, replaced by the hewing knife or seax. Depiction of combat with the dagger (degen) in Hans Talhoffer (1467) The dagger reappeared in the 12th century as the "knightly dagger", or more properly cross-hilt or quillon dagger, and was developed into a common arm and tool for civilian use by the late medieval period. The earliest known depiction of a cross-hilt dagger is the so-called "Guido relief" inside the Grossmünster of Zürich (c. 1120). A number of depictions of the fully developed cross-hilt dagger are found in the Morgan Bible (c. 1240). Many of these cross-hilt daggers resemble miniature swords, with cross guards and pommels very similar in form to swords of the period. Others, however, are not an exact match to known sword designs, having for example pommel caps, large hollow star shaped pommels on so-called “Burgundian Heraldic daggers” or antenna style cross and pommel, reminiscent of Hallstatt era daggers. The cross-hilt type persisted well into the Renaissance. The Old French term dague appears to have referred to these weapons in the 13th century, alongside other terms such as poignal and basilard. The Middle English dagger is used from the 1380s. During this time, the dagger was often employed in the role of a secondary defense weapon in close combat. The knightly dagger evolved into the larger baselard knife in the 14th century. The baselard was considered an intermediate between a short sword and a long dagger, and became popular also as a civilian weapon. Sloane MS. 2593 (c. 1400) records a song satirizing the use of oversized baselard knives as fashion accessories. In the Late Middle Ages, knives with blade designs that emphasized thrusting attacks, such as the stiletto, became increasingly popular, and some thrusting knives commonly referred to as 'daggers' ceased to have a cutting edge. This was a response to the deployment of heavy armor, such as maille and plate armour, where cutting attacks were ineffective and focus was on thrusts with narrow blades to punch through mail or aim at armour plate intersections (or the eye slits of the helmet visor). These late medieval thrusting weapons are sometimes classed by the shape of their hilt as either roundel, bollock or ear daggers. The term dagger is coined in this time, as are the Early Modern German equivalents dolch (tolch) and degen (tegen). In the German school of fencing, Johannes Liechtenauer (Ms. 3227a) and his successors (specifically Andres Lignizer in Cod. 44 A 8) taught fighting with the dagger. These techniques in some respects resemble modern knife fighting, but emphasized thrusting strokes almost exclusively, instead of slashes and cuts. When used offensively, a standard attack frequently employed the reverse or icepick grip, stabbing downward with the blade to increase thrust and penetrative force. This was done primarily because the blade point frequently had to penetrate or push apart an opponent's steel chain mail or plate armor in order to inflict an injury. The disadvantage of employing the medieval dagger in this manner was that it could easily be blocked by a variety of techniques, most notably by a block with the weaponless arm while simultaneously attacking with a weapon held in the right hand. Another disadvantage was the reduction in effective blade reach to the opponent when using a reverse grip. As the wearing of armor fell out of favor, dagger fighting techniques began to evolve which emphasized the use of the dagger with a conventional or forward grip, while the reverse or icepick grip was retained when attacking an unsuspecting opponent from behind, such as in an assassination. Renaissance and Early Modern era. Further information: Stiletto, Parrying dagger and Dirk. The dagger was very popular as a fencing and personal defense weapon in 17th- and 18th-century Spain, where it was referred to as the daga or puñal. During the Renaissance Age the dagger was used as part of everyday dress, and daggers were the only weapon commoners were allowed to carry on their person. In English, the terms poniard and dirk are loaned during the late 16th to early 17th century, the latter in the spelling dork, durk (presumably via Low German, Dutch or Scandinavian dolk, dolch, ultimately from a West Slavic tulich), the modern spelling dirk dating to 18th-century Scots".Unquote Here are some dagger pictures from http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.18843.html Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 2nd October 2015 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Having missed the quotation marks.

1st October 2015, 03:10 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	thank you, I know what a ballock dagger is because I have a few( around 20-25 pcs) in my collection.such a general definition on wikipedia tells me personally not so much. I do not think I can explain it to you but try it anyway. Because this thread is about a specific style of Ballock dagger held in Netherlands, Germany and Flanders between 1390-1460 . (some other types ballocks I have put in another thread) I hope the comments and placed images may focus somewhat on this type and/or period. further, it is good if we refer to the illustrations in the text, so what is it andwhat is the relevance of the images to the topic. The Mary Rose and dagger examples are here btw well in place. furthermore if it fails it is not a big disaster but in terms of quality of information provision of this thread a bit too general. best, Jasper

1st October 2015, 08:10 PM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	i have absolutely no idea what you want to say with the above and I find the given internet links far from sufficient reference. in order to avoid further unnecessary discussion, I rest my case. best wishes jasper

1st October 2015, 08:43 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let us lock this thread for a little while.

1st October 2015, 11:33 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thread reopened. Please carry on, Gentlemen.

2nd October 2015, 09:56 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,743	This thread is genuinely fascinating as I had not ever thought particularly about the ballock dagger being specifically differentiated regionally as a form. Apparently this is quite the case with these early examples shown by Jasper, and perhaps the thread might have been better titled 'Early ballock dagger forms from the Netherlands'. It is most interesting to see more on the ballock dagger overall and in the forms outside this scope as well as other developments into associated dagger forms. Honestly I had not thought of the Highland dirk being indirectly descended from these kinds of daggers, and see the stylizing of the hilt reflecting the form.