dagger series nr4 THE BALLOCK

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

How about a drawer full... like this...

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

How about a drawer full... like this...

@ Ibrahiim
would you please when you post an image specify the source and content.
This often says much more than the image alone.
thus etching and drawing when, where and by whom. Bottom find the site,(tomb) effigy the person and place and so on.

these english ballock dagger grip artifacts are discovered in 1971 in the mary rose warship wreck. they are of a different type as the continental daggers under #1 and also of a later date; first half of he 16thC.
They have a simpler blade geometry, 3 planes.

this type has more the shape and appearance of a phallus than its predecessor, the type was also popular in the Low Countries.
See an archaeological discovery from Netherlands, Dronten, Flevoland 1971

In General hard burl wood remains remarkably well preserved in the soil and water, fe all three daggers in post # 1 are finds from Netherlands.

the wooden grip still has the smell of cigar boxes after 600 years.

best,

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

@ Ibrahiim
would you please when you post an image specify the source and content.
This often says much more than the image alone.
thus etching and drawing when, where and by whom. Bottom find the site,(tomb) effigy the person and place and so on.

these english ballock dagger grip artifacts are discovered in 1971 in the mary rose warship wreck. they are of a different type as the continental daggers under #1 and also of a later date; first half of he 16thC.
They have a simpler blade geometry, 3 planes.

this type has more the shape and appearance of a phallus than its predecessor, the type was also popular in the Low Countries.
See an archaeological discovery from Netherlands, Dronten, Flevoland 1971

In General hard burl wood remains remarkably well preserved in the soil and water, fe all three daggers in post # 1 are finds from Netherlands.

the wooden grip still has the smell of cigar boxes after 600 years.

best,

Salaams cornelistromp ,
THE MARY ROSE IT INDEED WAS... I LOADED IT ALL UP BUT AT THE CRITICAL MOMENT THE POWER DOVE BENEATH THE WAVES LIKE THE GREAT SHIP HERSELF... And I regret I lost the reference page...but I'm on it now and will search ...See below the mighty ship The Mary Rose. Inside there there's a drawer load of Bollock Daggers...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Rose gives the amazing story yet I am unable to fish out the picture from Davy Jones Locker of the offending drawer load..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[cornelistromp]

@Ibrahiim,
not mentioning the source and content was actually not indicative for the maryrose relics.
it was more the lack of citation of the art pictures of your post 15 and 16.
evidently also drawings from the 20th century which are rarely representative for medieval, 14th and 15th century arms.

Also the ballock type of post 1 does not apply on those images, however some nice other types do.
with the different dagger threads, I (try to) make a distinction between the various daggers, so also between different ballock daggers.
the type of what is being discussed here has a distinct geometric multistage blade, all likelihood resulting from the dagger legislation in the cities.
I was hoping for more examples and details of this specific type.
(attachment is from collection of Dutch army museum)


best,
Jasper

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

@Ibrahiim,
not mentioning the source and content was actually not indicative for the maryrose relics.
it was more the lack of citation of the art pictures of your post 15 and 16.
evidently also drawings from the 20th century which are rarely representative for medieval, 14th and 15th century arms.

Also the ballock type of post 1 does not apply on those images, however some nice other types do.
with the different dagger threads, I (try to) make a distinction between the various daggers, so also between different ballock daggers.
the type of what is being discussed here has a distinct geometric multistage blade, all likelihood resulting from the dagger legislation in the cities.
I was hoping for more examples and details of this specific type.
(attachment is from collection of Dutch army museum)


best,
Jasper

This is the first mention you have made of #15 and #16. I consider these pictures relevant only as background interest information..Like the excellent artwork for the Mary Rose ...
You may wish to construct them into a portfolio and in which case they can easily be traced...The computer went off line and when I re engaged the machinery they couldnt be retraced. Note that I placed a first picture which unfortunately reorganised itself in another part of the post where I indicate "The first picture shows a set of differing styles for comparison".. Note that I don't write only in the exact blinkered brackets of precisely one steriotype but may on occasions absorb and illustrate other interrelated forms as development and comparison ...and where blades morph and change down the ages. A great example is the development of the Scottish Dirk. That is how I perceive Forum...and for meaningful discussion.

This is Medieval Artwork and as such is not copyrighted being hundreds of years old...even taking the date of copyright early in the 20th C ...Meanwhile I will continue to search for the source and if I find it /them I will post...or let you know...

I note from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollock_dagger The bollock dagger or ballock knife is a type of dagger with a distinctively shaped shaft, with two oval swellings at the guard resembling male testes ("bollocks"). The guard is often in one piece with the wooden grip, and reinforced on top with a shaped metal washer. The dagger was popular in Scandinavia, Flanders, Wales, Scotland and England between the 13th and 18th centuries, in particular the Tudor period. Within Briton the bollock dagger was commonly carried by many, including Border Reivers, as a backup for the lance and the sword. A large number of such weapons were found aboard the wreck of the Mary Rose. The bollock dagger is the predecessor to the Scottish dirk.

In the Victorian period weapon historians introduced the term kidney dagger, due to the two lobes at the guard, which could also be seen as kidney-shaped, in order to avoid any sexual connotation. (Blair 1962).

The hilt was often constructed of box root (dudgeon) in the 16th and 17th centuries, and the dagger was sometimes called dudgeon dagger or dudgeonhafted dagger in this period.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[cornelistromp]

thank you, I know what a ballock dagger is because I have a few( around 20-25 pcs) in my collection.such a general definition on wikipedia tells me personally not so much.

I do not think I can explain it to you but try it anyway.
Because this thread is about a specific style of Ballock dagger held in Netherlands, Germany and Flanders between 1390-1460 . (some other types ballocks I have put in another thread) I hope the comments and placed images may focus somewhat on this type and/or period.

further, it is good if we refer to the illustrations in the text, so what is it andwhat is the relevance of the images to the topic.
The Mary Rose and dagger examples are here btw well in place.

furthermore if it fails it is not a big disaster but in terms of quality of information provision of this thread a bit too general.

best,
Jasper

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

thank you, I know what a ballock dagger is because I have a few( around 20-25 pcs) in my collection.such a general definition on wikipedia tells me personally not so much.

I do not think I can explain it to you but try it anyway.
Because this thread is about a specific style of Ballock dagger held in Netherlands, Germany and Flanders between 1390-1460 . (some other types ballocks I have put in another thread) I hope the comments and placed images may focus somewhat on this type and/or period.

further, it is good if we refer to the illustrations in the text, so what is it andwhat is the relevance of the images to the topic.
The Mary Rose and dagger examples are here btw well in place.

furthermore if it fails it is not a big disaster but in terms of quality of information provision of this thread a bit too general.

best,
Jasper

I dont think threads fail. This one is only at 30 replies and is but young. OK lets accommodate your great idea about focusing on the type you call THE BALLOCK. Germany, Flanders and Netherlands....

Straightaway we run into deep water ...The weapon is very firmly also English and gave rise to the Scottish Dirk... It can be seen at various references with the same or similar flavour such as at https://www.knife-depot.com/knife-information-163.html where it can be observed...Quote"Possibly the manliest of daggers, the bollock dagger has two oval swellings at the tip of its shaft resembling the male genitalia. This dagger was popular in England and Scotland between the 13th and 18th centuries and was commonly carried by outlaws and raiders". (I remember this from my studied about the Border Rievers ...)

"In the Victorian period, historians called the dagger the kidney dagger, because of the two lobes at the guard and in order to avoid sexual connotations. The bollock dagger is also the origin of the expression 'bollocking,' which means to give or receive chastisement".Unquote.

In defence of your stance on this I do acknowledge a note from http://www.bytheswordinc.com/p-14195...r-ah-3271.aspx ...Quote"The Bollock Dagger was the civilian side arm of choice for most of Northern Europe from 1300 – 1550 and often seen on archers and occasionally on middle to higher classes".Unquote.

In so far as the source Wikepedia is concerned; it is a suitable baseline from which to advance and even if in part it is broad based and general it may be remembered that Forum is not only for knowledgeable participants but has a secondary and important role in addressing the subject to all the Forum...not just now but because of the way we collect information...for future study and reference. Do we therefor not have a duty to lay down as much information as we can?

Meanwhile, if I can find an excellent reference to European variants of this weapon I will post it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

This thread is genuinely fascinating as I had not ever thought particularly about the ballock dagger being specifically differentiated regionally as a form. Apparently this is quite the case with these early examples shown by Jasper, and perhaps the thread might have been better titled 'Early ballock dagger forms from the Netherlands'.

It is most interesting to see more on the ballock dagger overall and in the forms outside this scope as well as other developments into associated dagger forms. Honestly I had not thought of the Highland dirk being indirectly descended from these kinds of daggers, and see the stylizing of the hilt reflecting the form.