The development of the Indian katar

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th September 2015, 03:45 PM

On the contrary, I have shown several daggers however they are easily cataloged into age and type. I believe there are about 5 styles...sortable initially by age into 16, 17, 18, 19th Century and probably an odd ones out peculiar range of fanciful daggers with pistol or scissor configurations. Another odd style could be the two three spike etc.

Why are you phased out by a few dozen pictures...all of which can be easily slotted into their correct style and age format...? I have actually shown about 44 daggers mainly on 3 posts because these were from a huge collection from the Met....nothing wrong with the Met?....and 44 daggers is nothing. Up to that point we had a paltry half dozen or so examples ...and almost no references where more could be viewed / compared / evaluated/ considered.

The oldest type are the hooded handguard form. The styles with British Sword parts are distinguishable by that...The clean un handguarded variety are date able since they often occur on Mughal Artwork... and could perhaps be called Court Weapons.(Badge of Office)

The fanciful styles are easily recognized.

Here we have a workable data base with a pool of weapons... name one which upsets the equation ?... Unless we show the different variety of Katar how can we format the typology groups? Now since we have many of the fish in the tank can we not simply net the main varieties....and I would start by identifying your oldest form...based on the thread you started at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10022 which contains important information.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th September 2015, 04:43 PM

Hi Fernando,
Yes you could say that :-).

Hi Ibrahiim,
It seems as if you are already ahead of me with the development, so please go on, as I am sure many members would like to know how the katar developed into what it was a hundred years ago, and I find the different stages quite important.
The lines we follow when researching seem to be different, and as you now is so involved I think you should go on, and I will follow your development with interest.

Jens

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th September 2015, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Fernando,
Yes you could say that :-).

Hi Ibrahiim,
It seems as if you are already ahead of me with the development, so please go on, as I am sure many members would like to know how the katar developed into what it was a hundred years ago, and I find the different stages quite important.
The lines we follow when researching seem to be different, and as you now is so involved I think you should go on, and I will follow your development with interest.

Jens

Salaams Jens,
Sir, Being on the same thread which you started is like sitting in on a masterclass...Your experience and knowledge on all things Indian Weaponry is unsurpassed. I urge you to take it on....

My subject is Omani Weapons and Indian weaponry was somehow (probably by religion) totally excluded in the Omani style. It also followed the old addage that if it worked don't change it !

I know nothing about Katars..other than what I have learned from Forum and the occasional spin around the web.

Recently I decided to broaden my outlook and have added posts all over the Ethnographic strata and have learned a great deal about weapons I previously knew nothing about...

This has been of immense help and insofar as Katar are concerned it has been a steep learning curve... which is why I ask you Oh Master, to continue Sir, for I know nothing.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2015, 05:12 PM

What Jens is saying is that his intention (and original question) concerns looking into the 'development' of the katar as a unique weapon form, and had initiated this ajenda with references to the triangular shaped blade with transverse handle of 10th century.

It has long been agreed that the katar is unique, apparently to the Indian subcontinent but has remained a bit of a conundrum among arms scholars and collectors consistently from the earliest references.

It is not just the 'name', which is technically 'jamadhar', but became transfixed to 'katar' through an apparent slip in Egerton (as told in Pant, "Indian Arms and Armor", Lahore, 1980) . As the term had become colloquially entrenched as katar, it served no real purpose to further confuse matters by revision, though the case is well known to most who deeply study these arms.

While these panoplies of images are of course well intended, and serve well on the theme "beauty of the katar" and well illustrate the wide variations which have evolved over the centuries, it does not attend to the theme here.
A picture is of course wonderful, and clearly shows the magnificence which exists in the often maligned 'coffee table books', but regardless of the either limited or sometimes non existant captioning, loses importance from an informational aspect .

I agree in that it is hard to discuss and detail observations on singular examples among large bodies of images, so it increases the chances of misunderstanding considerably, a problem often present in these venues as it is.

This is such a great discussion and thread, and the participation is fantastic!!! I hope we can get back to the focus on 'development' and find some clues from some of the great iconography pictured among the entered.
The focus on 'Tanjore' form is entirely valid, and goes to the origin of the katar in the south.....the gauntlet hand covering goes to the later development of the pata.

So the questions remain:
What happened after the transverse handle was placed on an apparent slashing blade in around the 10th century?

What brought the movement of these curiously configured daggers into other areas of the subcontinent from their apparent southerly origins, and when did this transpire?

The southern forms appear to have remained a 'slashing' form, as was the favored use of edged weapons there......was it only in the north where the armor piercing support was added to the blade?

While the blades of katars seem to have native origin, it seems there became large numbers which carry European blades from cut down swords.
When did this begin? and where?

By no means do I mean to discount the amazing entries here with so many wonderful photos of these daggers, but very much hope to exact the continued participation along the original topic Thank you so much guys!!!

Jens Nordlunde · 27th September 2015, 09:10 PM

Hello Ibrahim,
Thank you for you mail - well written and full of irony, but that is all right I dont mind.

Hi Jim,
Thank you for your mail. Nice of you to try to explain it all, but alas it does not work.
This will be my last mail on this thread.
I hope Ibrahiim and estcrh can and will take it further, so that the members can learn about the development of the katar.

Jens

27th September 2015, 09:10 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hello Ibrahim, Thank you for you mail - well written and full of irony, but that is all right I dont mind. Hi Jim, Thank you for your mail. Nice of you to try to explain it all, but alas it does not work. This will be my last mail on this thread. I hope Ibrahiim and estcrh can and will take it further, so that the members can learn about the development of the katar. Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 27th September 2015 at 10:09 PM.

27th September 2015, 03:45 PM	#1
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	On the contrary, I have shown several daggers however they are easily cataloged into age and type. I believe there are about 5 styles...sortable initially by age into 16, 17, 18, 19th Century and probably an odd ones out peculiar range of fanciful daggers with pistol or scissor configurations. Another odd style could be the two three spike etc. Why are you phased out by a few dozen pictures...all of which can be easily slotted into their correct style and age format...? I have actually shown about 44 daggers mainly on 3 posts because these were from a huge collection from the Met....nothing wrong with the Met?....and 44 daggers is nothing. Up to that point we had a paltry half dozen or so examples ...and almost no references where more could be viewed / compared / evaluated/ considered. The oldest type are the hooded handguard form. The styles with British Sword parts are distinguishable by that...The clean un handguarded variety are date able since they often occur on Mughal Artwork... and could perhaps be called Court Weapons.(Badge of Office) The fanciful styles are easily recognized. Here we have a workable data base with a pool of weapons... name one which upsets the equation ?... Unless we show the different variety of Katar how can we format the typology groups? Now since we have many of the fish in the tank can we not simply net the main varieties....and I would start by identifying your oldest form...based on the thread you started at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10022 which contains important information. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

27th September 2015, 04:43 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando, Yes you could say that :-). Hi Ibrahiim, It seems as if you are already ahead of me with the development, so please go on, as I am sure many members would like to know how the katar developed into what it was a hundred years ago, and I find the different stages quite important. The lines we follow when researching seem to be different, and as you now is so involved I think you should go on, and I will follow your development with interest. Jens

27th September 2015, 05:12 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	What Jens is saying is that his intention (and original question) concerns looking into the 'development' of the katar as a unique weapon form, and had initiated this ajenda with references to the triangular shaped blade with transverse handle of 10th century. It has long been agreed that the katar is unique, apparently to the Indian subcontinent but has remained a bit of a conundrum among arms scholars and collectors consistently from the earliest references. It is not just the 'name', which is technically 'jamadhar', but became transfixed to 'katar' through an apparent slip in Egerton (as told in Pant, "Indian Arms and Armor", Lahore, 1980) . As the term had become colloquially entrenched as katar, it served no real purpose to further confuse matters by revision, though the case is well known to most who deeply study these arms. While these panoplies of images are of course well intended, and serve well on the theme "beauty of the katar" and well illustrate the wide variations which have evolved over the centuries, it does not attend to the theme here. A picture is of course wonderful, and clearly shows the magnificence which exists in the often maligned 'coffee table books', but regardless of the either limited or sometimes non existant captioning, loses importance from an informational aspect . I agree in that it is hard to discuss and detail observations on singular examples among large bodies of images, so it increases the chances of misunderstanding considerably, a problem often present in these venues as it is. This is such a great discussion and thread, and the participation is fantastic!!! I hope we can get back to the focus on 'development' and find some clues from some of the great iconography pictured among the entered. The focus on 'Tanjore' form is entirely valid, and goes to the origin of the katar in the south.....the gauntlet hand covering goes to the later development of the pata. So the questions remain: What happened after the transverse handle was placed on an apparent slashing blade in around the 10th century? What brought the movement of these curiously configured daggers into other areas of the subcontinent from their apparent southerly origins, and when did this transpire? The southern forms appear to have remained a 'slashing' form, as was the favored use of edged weapons there......was it only in the north where the armor piercing support was added to the blade? While the blades of katars seem to have native origin, it seems there became large numbers which carry European blades from cut down swords. When did this begin? and where? By no means do I mean to discount the amazing entries here with so many wonderful photos of these daggers, but very much hope to exact the continued participation along the original topic Thank you so much guys!!!